Nutrition for a expecting dobe [Archive]

fatwilly

04-08-2010, 11:02 PM

RKCM

04-09-2010, 09:48 AM

Personally, we do a full blood panel on the dogs before they are bred so that we know their health before breeding them. I'm not sure how that works if she is already bred but you could ask your vet. Most people test before they are bred for Vwd, ofa, heart problems etc. Not sure what you have done ??? I just don't have enough information to advise you much. How old are the dogs? What is the cause of her skin problem and is that healed? Who bred them and what did that breeder recommend? Have they been health tested? Have their shots? Wormed? What problems have the parents had? Need more information on pacifics to suggest more to you. Not all dogs should be bred and I have concerns about the puppies in this litter too.

I feed Diamond Natural and we give fresh meat and veggies from the garden when in season. You should have her on a balanced diet and maybe pacific vitamins. If you are going to cook for the dogs, it has to be balanced

I don't know about breeding two delutes but I wouldn't do that or even risk it, especially with a female that had skin problems. We only have blacks and reds and prefer them. Although, Dobs4ever knows alot about delutes and her dogs have good coats. That is something I would research for sure.

They usually do the tails at the 2nd joint, not the 3rd. There is way too much to know, do, and it is costly to breed a litter.

Dobs4ever

04-09-2010, 10:16 AM

A vet check does not mean a dog is in good health. It means that as far as the vet can see they are in good health. A full blood panel tells you if all vital organs are functioning normal plus the T3 and T4 for thyroid, enzyme levels etc. X rays at 2 yrs to evaluate hips, Vwd testing at any age after 3 weeks, These are minimum requirements for health testing.

It has been my observation that two dilutes bred together are more likely to have skin issues. So I would advise the prospective puppy owners of this and what to look for.

Bitch pills usually provide the additional supplement needed and help promote an easy delivery. I am not sure how old your girl is but if under a year this will be very hard on her as she is not mature and not really big enough to have puppies. Rather than take a chance on messing her up you can talk to your vet about aborting which since you had not planned for the litter might be something to consider.

Since you are not wanting to be a breeder and were not prepared he can spay her for the abortion. Then you won't have to worry about another accident. Just a thought which since they are both dilute might work out better for you.

Has she been on heartworm preventative??? I have never had to worm a bitch other than the heartworm meds during pregnancy as they are on a regular schedule for worming.

There is a whole other encyclopedia that you need to get ready for to learn about how to properly care of puppies. It is not easy and it is very time consuming if you do it right. Taking care of the bitch is the least of your worries at this point.

I would never breed a bitch under 2 and health testing done. I am not trying to be ugly. Just give you some options and info that might help.

RKCM

04-09-2010, 11:17 AM

FatWilly, without knowing the situation on how old the dog or her health or ? I would do the following:

1. Have her checked for worms and heartworms
2. Have a full panel blood test done
3. Have a Vwd test done so you know is she is a bleeder.
4. I would ask the vet about a holter to monitor the heart, not sure they can do that at this point or if she could even take the meds if she needed them but I would ask.
5. Have a skin scapping done so you know why she is balding, as I read in the other posts.

???

Dobs4ever

04-09-2010, 11:40 AM

RKCM vets do not have holters unless they are a cardiologist. Vets are not trained to use them or read them

Sorry I did not go back and read all post but I did feel she had to be under a year just missed that she herself already had skin problems. This is sad for the dogs involved and sadder for the prospective dog owners. I hope fat willy understands we are trying to give him some solid advise and not just criticize. It is hard to respond to these kinds of post without it sounding like someone is being ugly.

It is one reason why responsible dog breeders do not place intact dogs in just anyones hands. A breeder should know what a bitches season is, what to look for, what days are most likely to result in puppies, that bitch and dog must be kept separate, all health testing is a go, how to care for the bitch and then the puppies. Whelping box, whelping pads - lots of laundry soap and bleach to wash at least 2 loads a day keeping puppies clean up to 2 weeks then 3 to 4 loads a day washing bedding and area. By 4 weeks then need a larger area to potty and play etc. xpen so they can move around andhave more room - 3 Tons of newspapers for obvious reasons. Start supplement feeding puppies at 2 weeks, start worming at 2 weeks and every week thereafter, tails and dews done on day 3 to 5, so so so much to know - first shots at 5 weeks I give Neo Par and then at 7 weeks first puppy shots, ears need to be done at 7 weeks by trained quality vet - no breeder would take a chance that the vet KNOWS how to do ears and the list goes on - aftercare after puppies come home for 2 weeks til stitches are out and puppies are ready to go to their families. Socialization for the puppies and the list goes on.

I

Dobs4ever

04-09-2010, 11:59 AM

I will add this info also as it may help - On my last litter here were my expenses:
1. Stud fee $1500.00, Health test for Ayla - Full blood panel with T3 and T4 $325.00, OFA Hips & elbows $125.00, Expenses to travel to the stud round trip not including food etc $600.00, Echo $150.00, Tails and dews and first vet check $ 150.00, Cerf $35.00, Training and titling - $1200. (this is minimum and does not include travel exp and show exp., Ear crops $1,800.00, Shots and worming $300.00 for a total of $6,185 and this does not include food bill increase for puppies which is 6 extra bags for the 10 weeks plus the supplements I feed etc. My dog food is approximately $60.00 a bag by the time I ship it in. OOOPS forgot to add I microchip all my puppies so that runs $15.00 per chip per puppy so that was another $120.00

Toys and treats for puppies, pictures for the families who are waiting on they new baby and the frustration of getting good pictures is just donated time.

It was Ayla's first litter and she was 3 1/2 years old. Do I get any credit for caring for her til breeding???

My Eika/Tyson litter I had over $7500.00 in the puppies by the time they went to their families. So last year for the 2 litters I had I spent a little over $13,700 and that does not include food for anyone.

RKCM

04-09-2010, 02:31 PM

RKCM vets do not have holters unless they are a cardiologist. Vets are not trained to use them or read them
I

4ever, I said talk to the vet about a holter. My vet owns one and has loaned it. I know that a few of the clubs own them and loan them to members. Most don't but he may know about a clinic in your area. I was thinking of what could be done for the dam now.

Fatwilly, a lot of us have very strong feelings about breeding dogs that already have problems. Skin problems can be an indication of other things, like thyroid etc. You never did say what tests were done, if any or how old the parents were.

Who is the breeder of your dog?

Rhiannon

04-09-2010, 08:21 PM

And not to say hope you don't need a c-section, or that mom takes decent care of the puppies and does not decide to go psycho and severely hurt them or worse even kill them. Be willing to give up at least the first two weeks spending round the clock time by the whelping box and did I say forget sleep for the first two weeks at least. And then developing a good contract, interviewing prospective homes, advertising and countless hours on the phone answering puppy family's questions and grooming for the shows and hours at the show and travel time. Come to think of it why do any of us do this? LOL. Love of the breed and the wonderful forever homes that a baby goes to.

Panama

04-09-2010, 09:00 PM

Ouch... a dilute to dilute breeding with obvious skin/coat issues? 1 wk gestation? Obviously you mean they tied a week ago?

Dobs4ever

04-09-2010, 09:43 PM

What is confusing to me is that in a post in Dec 2008 which I will copy and paste here the breeding is announced and request for e mails for anyone interested. So at least they are not dilute to dilute but it is just as bad if you are breeding a dog that has already lost her coat . I won't even touch on the fact that she is Z factored and are not supposed to be bred. Then here it is stated that they don't want to be breeders.

IMHO Breeding should be left to breeders. See post:

(Quote below}
If my blue girl will have our B&T male, we may see a litter just down the road. She came from a litter of blues and fawns ( a white one too ) and our males litter mates were 50/50 blue and B&T. We plan on keeping one pup but the rest will be up for adoption and we will only ask our real expenses: tail docking and vet fees. Both are papered AKC and have a very mellow temperament. She is 60 lbs with the classic pointy nose ( the smartest Dobie I have ever owned) and he is 80 lbs ( hasn't completely filled out yet ) with a larger, wider snout. LOL. Pictures are posted. She doesn't have any skin issues like most blues, and has a nice coat that is a little darker than most.
I will not put them in the paper for obvious reasons, and prefer to give them to previous or current Dobie owners.
I can be contacted by email.

Panama

04-10-2010, 06:25 AM

Knowing "Z" is involved, I'm going to completely stay out of this. I get in too much trouble when that subject comes up.

Seems no matter how much information is out there and given before people get a Dobe... it amazes me how many still don't have a clue. That's all I've got to say about that!

RKCM

04-10-2010, 08:25 AM

My blue girl will be giving us pups the end of May. I'm looking for some suggestions from the more experienced parents. I am not a breeder, nor want to be one, but Razi and Tank had a fling and we will take good care of the puppies until homes are found. Both are AKC and have no health problems. Raz came from a blue litter, Tank was from a mixed, Bl-rust, blue and fawn

I want to make sure they ( Razi too) have the best diet so they are healthy.
Suppliments ? She gets plenty of fruits and veggies, and her basic kibble is fish & sweet potato. She is 1 week in to her gestation.

If you didn't want to have puppies, you have to have the dogs fixed. There is no excuse the accident is all on you and at the expense of the puppies health. Why?

Dogs that have albinos in their background could have many serious health problems. Skin problems is just one of many, as you well know in your own dog. Add deafness, sensitivity to light, blindnesss.......the list goes on. It is a clear risk that I'm sure you know. Not to mention, few people want a poor little puppy that could suffer because you chose to breed.

If you were concerned about healthy puppies, you should not have bred this litter. I'm very sorry for those puppies and for you that had no regard for giving them a healthy start.

Rhiannon

04-10-2010, 04:03 PM

I have to agree with what has been said here. No Z-Factored dogs should ever be bred for the obvious reasons as stated and no reason for me to repeat what three others have already said. A lot of times someone may not even know that there dog is Z-Factored when they buy but as stated in Dobs4ever's copy and pasted post you knew the dog had a white puppy in the same litter it came from. That should be obvious that Z-Factor is involved. Accident or not the only responsible thing to have done would have been to have spayed or neutered and not allowed an accidental breeding to have occured. Because they are already on the way I certainly hope that puppies are placed on limited registrations and spay neuter agreements in place so the Z-factored issue is not allowed to continue in subsequent generations and that the dog in question is removed from any chance of ever being bred again. Planned or accidental.

fatwilly

04-12-2010, 01:33 AM

I was only looking for some friendly input based upon the years of experience and ownership that some in this forum obviously have.

We are all entitled to our opinion. While some are more qualified than others to give advice pertaining to these areas, I defer graciously to those with that experience and credential, and appreciate the response of all.

That being said, the personal inferance and tenor of content that some of the replies contained took me quite by surprise.

Thank you all for your input.

fatwilly

04-12-2010, 02:02 AM

You folks are right, of course. I'll run right out and have BOTH my Dobermans put to sleep. Problem solved !!!

I've enjoyed reading the posts and hearing about everyones dogs. Too bad mine are bad. Bad dogs. Bad human.

Ex Doberman Hub member.

Panama

04-12-2010, 07:10 AM

That isn't hardly what anyone has said. Simply if you had no intentions of breeding, one or both should have been altered. That would've solved the problem.

No one said that your dogs were bad and needed to be put to sleep, just recommeded that one or both should be altered.

I'm not going to get on a rant about "Z" factored Dobes, just merely state that the continued breeding of them (Z factored & whites) keeps the cycle going, and it needs to be stopped.

Dobs4ever

04-12-2010, 09:01 AM

Unfortunately - people ask for advise but have little intentions of following it it seems unless it agrees with them The hardest thing to take is constructive criticism because most really only wanted justification for their decisions.

The only way to learn is to have people give you information and solutions which we tried to do. The problem is not the dogs - it is always the human that causes the problems.

There are no bad Dobermans - they did not ask to be brought into this world. Once here they should be loved and cared for just as any other Doberman. The bitch should be aborted and spayed not euthanized. To continue and have this litter does show a total lack of caring about this breed we struggle so hard to protect and own. We do not push our problems off on unsuspecting new families.

I am sure fatwilly will be completely honest and inform his puppy buyers that they are Z factored and that the bitch has skin issues. That will probably be a big life lesson in itself because now he will have X # of puppies that no one in their right mind would want to get involved with. I guess we can say fortunately it keeps rescues going with puppies. (NOT)

This is why he would be better to abort and get a quality dog not Z factored if he is intending to breed which obviously he is without any knowledge of Dobermans or doing things correctly. Dogs don't have flings - dogs do what God inteneded them to do. That is why we have to be responsible for them. So to knowingly let a dog and bitch run together during heat cycle if you are not wanting puppies as he stated in the first post to this thread shows a complete lack of ====== well I think I will just leave that up to you to fill in.

The forums are designed for us to learn. There are no dumb questions but when someone ask about something that is harmful to our breed in anyway and we give advise and they ignore it what does that say??? At least people who read this forum will have some honest information from the horses mouth on this litter.

I feel we have a responsibility to readers to provide accurate information regardless. That is why people come on and share experiences they have had with breeders and ask questions - to learn - It does a disservice to this breed and readers if we do not give correct information.

Panama - thank you for your input and helping me stay calm!!! I need a big stiff drink and I don't usually drink - maybe I should start. I will say a special prayer for those innocent babies. I do not see a bright future for them.

fatwilly

04-12-2010, 09:51 AM

I am not a breeder. These puppies will not be sold, but given to good homes with people whom I know personally that have a history with Dobermans, many of whom had recieved dogs from me 30 years ago.

Funny thing about 'right to lifers'. They ramble on about 'poor baby' this and 'poor baby' that and have solutions for the issue as they see it. But they wouldn't be caught dead adopting. Metaphoricaly speaking.

I made a mistake coming here as most of you are too full of yourselves and interested only in generating wealth thru puppies. You must really have a guilty conscience, because I never broached the subject of 'selling' puppies....you added that yourself for effect. Nice touch.

And you can make up anything else that makes you feel good, but since I won't ever come back here, its a moot point.

RKCM

04-12-2010, 10:35 AM

Fatwilly, I guess we were rude but when you have a dog with skin problems and are Z factored......you risk unhealthy pups and suffering. Many of these dogs end up in rescue and someone else has to care for them. We just think when you have a dog that is unhealty, you make sure they don't pass that one. You don't breed Z's or Albinos and you have the fixed.

I work in rescue and have one coming today that the owners abandoned to rescue. Many are due to the owners not being able to afford their dog's vet bill. Albinos have many problems and Z factor dogs risk problems. Your puppies don't deserve that. When you have skin problems, that is double the fact.

You were wrong in breeding a female that you decribed as "bald," and Z factored. I do however wish everyone of those puppies the best life. If you want to breed, you need to find out more on health and more on the breed.
Best.....

Panama

04-12-2010, 03:32 PM

You've been with the breed for 30 yrs? Or do you mean " many of whom had recieved dogs from me 30 years ago" of some other breed?

If you've been with Dobermans for 30 yrs, and allowed a Z factored with skin/coat issues to reproduce, you've missed out on a lot of education over the past few decades. Not knowing the health behind the pair being bred (or already knowing there are health issues and allowing them to reproduce anyway) is a recipe for disaster.

"generating wealth thru puppies" Huh? Breeding health tested dogs (with favorable results), stable temperament, sound in structure and a history of longevity is how it should be. This helps predict the outcome of the offspring being produced, not a ploy to generate wealth thru puppies.

RKCM

04-12-2010, 06:56 PM

I'm sure what Fatwilly mean is that I would be wealthy if I didn't spend it on my dogs.

None of us agree on your breeding, but are interested in what you do now with the puppies. We hope that you will have all the dogs fixed.

fatwilly

04-14-2010, 08:51 AM

I have finally recieved approval to obtain a kennel license in the county where my farm is, and the sanction of the authority to start work on my Doberman rescue.

At first my only thought was to rescue as many of the mistreated and abused dogs as possible, but then I thought...how many good people were put off by the arrogance of breeders whose self fulfilling fantasies of controling the movement, sale and ownership of a dog bred to be a companion ? That same arogance is prevolent in the rescue arena as well.

Many of us treat these dogs as family members and for good reason. Some, including myself and my son, have been saved from impending criminal acts from others by the selfless sacrifice of a Doberman we have raised as members of our family. I have placed, over the last 30 years in excess of 35 dogs I have rescued to good homes, in which all of the rescued animals lived out their full lives in happy family environments.

I now have a new purpose: To place as many good rescued dogs as possible with families or individuals who have been insulted, demeaned and generally intellectualy abused by the bourgeoisie of the dog world.

I will make it my lifes passion and work, using much of my resources, to see that I educate as many potential dog owners of the pitfalls of buying from a breeder, and instead, recieving a 2nd chance dog.

I will further buy a breeding pair, the best of bloodlines I can find in this country, to breed puppies in AKC/UKC and sell them so far under market, so that many deserving people can enjoy the breed, not just the wealthy. Hey ! I may buy them from you ?? Ouch.

I have had one previous litter, in 1980, all placed in loving homes and all stayed until their deaths. I will place this litter the same way. Then after the purchase of the highest quality breeding stock, will embark on a lifes quest of providing affordable, quality dobermans. Because...if you can do it, I certainly can. lol I have spent the last week crunching the numbers and confering with local, ' more friendly' breeders about the issue and have found I have the perfect facility on the perfect land.

Let's Rock-n-Roll !!

fatwilly signing out.

RKCM

04-14-2010, 09:42 AM

Fatwilly, I do rescue and it is rewarding saving dogs. I know that you have been blasted on here for breeding a dog you called "bald" and Z factored. Albinos have so many health problems and this is why some of us jumped on it. We love the breed and we see dogs with problems going through rescue and sometimes they never get placed. There are people now that are losing their jobs and can't afford food for the dog or vet care. It is sad but even well meaning owners sometimes can't keep even their dogs. When you breed a dog with known problems, what did you really expect from us?

I'm sorry that you choose to bred a Z factored dog in this condition and I feel sorry for the puppies. I have a rescue right now that was dumped and the owner said, "well she was free so we decided she was just too much to handle now." It is sad to see dogs in rescue........and maybe you will see one day exactly why we were upset with you. There is another litter in Tulsa, Z factored and he can't give them away. Ears will not be cropped and he has them for now but expect they will either go as bait dog for fighting or a puppymill that houses them.....I hope not but this is the facts.....few people support breeding dogs with known problems.

Nothing Personal, but it is what it is. Most of the breeders on this forum have waiting lists and those are full before they even breed. They have a purpose and they health test. They have enforceable contracts and they check out the homes, even if the dog is shipped. You will find that the best bloodlines are hard to get after intentionally breeding a Z factored.

Debating what you have done is ridiculous but it's America and if you want to breed unhealthy puppies, you have made a pretty good attempt at that. You will get no encouragement here on what you have done. You know our opinion.

We do care about the mother and her puppies though.

How is the mother? Did you take her to the vet? Did you find out what kind of worms she has? Does she have heartworms? Is she a Vwd affected? Those are some basic things that could save her life.......we aren't talking healthy here.....we are talking living..............I'd sincerely like to know. I'd also like to know if you are having the sold limited? Or do you really think what you did was right?

RKCM

04-18-2010, 09:44 AM

I got your PM and we all were answering your questions with honesty, but it does hit a nerve with most of us. If you want to try to improve and breed healthier dogs, you should not have done this breeding. Now that you have and she is in whelp and you are having puppies. Here are my suggestions:

1. Have her Vwd tested with a DNA test. It's $65 at one of the labs mentioned on a current thread. and you will at least know if she can bleed to death and have clotting agents available.

2. Have her checked for worms and heartworms by your vet. If you have already done that, great.

3. Have a thyroid test done.

4. Get a vitamin from the vet or a vet supply, especially if she is in whelp and needed to be wormed.

I understand that you now say that her coat is just thin, but that was not what your post stated. Either way, she has skin problems that can be passed on. You have done a very risky breeding.

Those of us that do rescues see dobermans dumped everyday due to people that just put two dogs together without knowing about basic health. It is sad for the dogs and why you were blasted. It is nothing personal. It is all about the dogs. Regardless, we will answer your questions.

Giving the dogs away, doesn't get the best homes in most cases. If you care about those puppies and parents, have them all fixed and make arrangement for that. Again, it isn't about money or anything but your responsibility for bringing these puppies in the world and for ensuring the best health of your own dog.

No person I know in this world is perfect and no one knows everything. I think maybe just researching and moving on to do what is right now would be better than slamming us with PM's. It is all about the dogs, not us.

All of us welcome your questions, but know we want others reading this that breeding Z factored dogs isn't right. No one that love the breed and care about health will support you concerning that.

Dobs4ever

04-18-2010, 11:11 AM

RKCM - two very well worded post. The best thing to do to save everyone and our dogs is to abort the litter. This will save Fatwilly untold heartache and frustration down the road. Then get what ever health care the bitch needs and spay her in the process. In today's global world info can be found on the internet to help and all this could and should have been avoided. Then when people get mad because they don't like the advise shows a definite lack of maturity. Hope all goes as well as it can for all involved.

RKCM

04-18-2010, 11:32 AM

While, this is an option 4ever, I doubt this will be done and I may not even agree at this late date. I think fixing them in the first place would of been best or at least a shot if it was an accident EARLY. But it wasn't an accident the way I read on the other posts. But now, I'm not sure. Prevention would of been the best.

The rescue was faced with this a few months back when they got a mom in whelp and the father. Dobermans, but poor quality and most likely Z. She was full of worms, low thryoid, and anemic. She got care and of the 10 puppies, she lost all but 3. They were born dead. A miracle she could even move dead pups. Sad situation. And I was told it was hard to even place those puppies. They got 7 adults in this past week and no placements. There is just no good homes for all these dogs and the breeders that aren't responsible are walking away.

Oh, I did learn that the dogs that were hardest to place were uncropped. So we might add crop the ears, if the live.

I hope he will make a responsible decision to at least find the best homes, check them out, and make arrangements for all the puppies and parents to be fixed.

Did I leave anything out of the list on what to do now?

Dobs4ever

04-19-2010, 09:20 AM

RKCM I agree 100% that spay/neuter would have been the best option but that is past since she is expecting - so the only options available now are to abort and spay or let her have the puppies then deal with the problems for the next 10 to 12 years if they should be so lucky to live that long. They can give a series of pills that causes the puppies to be absorbed by the dam or they could go in a do a spay and end the pregnancy. Especially if her health is in question and she may be a risk anyway it might be the best option. I agree with you also that is probably a moot point.