Vaccinations??

[Shadowlands]

I have to ask everyone what the general consensus is on whether to vaccinate or not. I have always vaccinated my pups and then have their titers checked and decide from there whether it was necessary to vaccinate again once a year old and up (other than rabies of course). I don't treat for heart worm either but I do test every year. I don't treat them for it as I feel if I test them every year (twice if I have to) regardless of whether they are on preventative meds, why am I giving them those preventative meds? I would prefer not to give my dogs small doses of arsenic if I don't have to. Again, my choice on the heartworm.
But I would like to hear what everyone does or doesn't do; or what their believes are in regards to vaccinations.
What has brought this to a head for me is a young 14 wk old GSD pup died of complications/severe reactions to the vaccinations she received.
But I also feel I don't know enough about this to decide to or not to vaccinate with my next pup(s).

[RKCM]

All our dogs are on heartworm preventive which also kills worms. There are shots that last 3 yrs, but rabies is required yearly in my state. We give DHLP and Parvo. We always give killed virus shots as they are safer for the dogs. Also, we give the kennel cough vacine. We live in an area that if you don't, your dog will get sick and it's not worth the risk. If you dogs is around other dogs, it is a better idea and rarely you have problems. Preventing heartworms is much easier than treating them. WE think that any risks with shots are small compared to the risk of distemper, Parvo, or other diseases. Our contract requires you vacinate the dogs and all the clubs in our area that train dogs require that all dogs have all their shots and they require a vet signature.

There are meds that you can have on hand for reactions to shots. If the dog that died had a reaction to a shot, there was something wrong with the dog in some way or the people didn't get it to the vet in time. There could of also been something wrong with the shots. We get ours from our vet or he gives them. It maybe more than some feedstore,, but we know it has been refrigerated and good. Just not worth it to buy the cheapest for us. I can tell you in 35 years in dogs that none of mine have EVER had a reaction. And since we vacinate, none have had the diseases they were vacinated against. It just protects them. There are some that are against it but it won't be me.

A dog that has parvo as a puppy will not usually be the same dog that did not have it. Diseases that we vacinate against can cause other problems later on and cause very serious to the dogs longivity, production. There are people that disagree, but we will always do what keeps our dogs healthy and prevent diseases. We vacinate and require it.

[von Cosack Dobermann]

All the initial shots need to be spaced out over a 8 week period. Rabies at around 8 months but then theres always the laws in your area that most vets love to pay their electric bill, atleast. No boosters are needed until 4 yrs. old, I never feed my dog poisons (except my cooking)I use home remedies when I can and I suggest that people pay attention to the "lay of the land" to have a plan in regards to seasonal problems such as fleas and mosquitoes etc. Your geography can dictate precautionary measures with your dog, so pay attention to it. No heartworm meds here never did never will, common sense will serve you well and then theres the net and forums on every subject under the sun. Hey we're on one of those forums right now, Smile!! Von.

[Shadowlands]

I agree Becky. I have always vaccinated and probably always will. The only one I differ on is the heartworm but everyone has their own opinions and experiences, which I respect.
I only asked because there seems to be a lot of folks out there that believe vaccinations are wrong. I do believe vets over-vaccinate as most vaccines were made to last up to 7 years and even for the life of your dog. Which is why I have their titers checked. This checks thier levels of immunization to certain diseases and in turn I decide from there whether they need to be vaccinated again or not. I always get their rabies shot as that is the only one required by law and I give them the 3 year one.
Here too the rabies shot has to be updated every year, every 3 years if the 3 year shot is given.

[Shadowlands]

Thanks Von. Glad to hear someone else doens't do the heartworm either. :)
And as for the home made remedies for fleas and ticks, a lot of them work very well and for very little money...which must piss off the vets out there. :)

[RKCM]

In the south, you either use heartworms meds or you get heartworms. We start them out at about a year and give it monthly. Canada may not have the problem we have in the south.

Heartworms are transmitted by mosquitoes......they bite a dog infected and then your dog and WAM! Heartworm meds also kill the worms that are a given in the south if you don't worm the dogs. they will have worms. Whips and Hooks can kill a dog and don't always show up in tests. We see it a lot in the south. Your area maybe different.

Kennel Cough is common at the shows and just not something I will risk. Distemper and other diseases can be prevented and just not what we will skip, even with titers because if you give a good vaccine, you won't have it. It is also required by the obedience clubs in our area if you plan on participating with your dog. There are no acceptions on that here and they won't accept titers. A vet even has to examine the dog and sign on it's health. It is also required when your dog passes the CGC. Now if the shot is a 3 yr vaccine, that would pass but it would have to be reccommended.

Parvo is a killer of puppies. Years ago I had a friend bring down 3 Elk Hounds for new homes during the Astro Hall Dog Shows. They stayed at the house when we went to the show. When we got home, they were half dead. All of them died the next day, a horrible death, even with vet intervention. All have been vacinated. At that time, the vaccines weren't as good and she bought the 2nd one from a feed store. We suspected they were not refrigerated properly. I had a new litter of Pekingese at that time about 4 weeks old, still nursing. No one got sick because the mother was vacinated and my shots came from my vet, who we trusted and believed were properly stored. It was a scary situation and a horrible horrible death. There is nothing wrong with giving your own shots, but where you buy them matters. Not properly stored can also make the dog sick. Remember too that live vaccines shed the virus so you have to do all the dogs.

We may vacinate and put too much poisons in our dogs but I think there is a far greater risk of not doing it or not getting a good vaccine. And with the number of Seniors around her, I'm thinking it must not be that toxic and if it is the dogs aren't dropping dead from it and they aren't sick.

Like Von said, different areas maybe different but in Houston, Oklahoma....ya just do it!

[gtjblloyd]

I'll have to agree with RK on this. Both heartworm and Parvo are rampant in this area as well, and I'd rather give the vaccine than risk my dog. I've had a Parvo puppy before, he was lucky and lived, but it was touch and go.
Heartworm is another big problem around here. Georgia is a mosquito heaven and for unprotected dogs it's just a matter of time!

Just my humble opinion, of course :)

[Shadowlands]

First, Canada has an unbelievable amount of mosquitos. Lol! And the meds CAN be preventative. I would have to say they don't STOP your dog from getting heartworms because your dog has to be tested every year to see if he has it. If the heartworm meds STOPPED your dog from getting it, you would never have to test him for it, just continue giving it. That is the reason I don't administer it to my guys. When the mosquitos are very bad in this area, I have them tested twice a year. The preventative is the exact same medication as the one administered to kill the heartworm and that ingredient is aresenic. I simply don't see giving them poison for something they don't have with something that may not stop them from getting it either. Even being on heartworm meds your dog can still get heartworms and then have to be on a higher dose of arsenic to kill them anyway.
The vaccinations are designed by the supplier to last from 5 years to a lifetime. They were never created to be administered every year, which is why we can test their levels for immunization and administer whichever vaccination that is needed, if any.
This is all researchable and can be looked up by the makers of these vaccines. I will not give supplier names as I am neither condeming nor condoning vaccinating every year. I am simply asking what everyone else thinks about this and what I believe and why.

I believe all puppies should be fully vaccinated. I am refering to dogs one year and older only.

[raja]

I am a strong advocate of the heart worm pills. I have never heard of an adverse reaction to the medication. I did however know a dog that nearly died as a result of heartworms. The dog lived in Wisconsin, an area known for mosquitos. The dog suffered greatly over a long period of time. It eventually pulled through but a simple pill would have prevented a lot of agony and resulting heart damage. An ounce of prevention.....

[Panama]

I purchase all my dog's shots (except Rabies) from Jeffer's and administer them here at home. The only problem I've ever had with them is that some vets will not recognize owner administered vaccinations. Luckily, the Jeffer's warehouse (the same one people order on line from) is only 40 min away!

Using my last litter as an example:
1 round of 5-in-1 costs me $4.35 x 5 pups = $21.65
Pups are in my home not being exposed to who knows what walked through the vet's
door before us.

1 round of 5-in-1 (same exact packaging) at the vet $18 x 5 pups + $35 office visit= $125
Exposure to whatever any dogs have come through that door in the past 24-48 hr or so or dogs that are being kept at the vet's office for treatment... I see no point in exposing pups to all that. They always warn not to take a pup where strange dogs frequent until they are thoroughly vaccinated!

Rabies: 3 yr vaccine

As for heartworm prevention, yes, we do give a monthly preventative all year and test annually. I know several people in NY & Maine that give h/w preventative like May-Oct only, but Nov-April it's usually too cold to have mosquitoes.

[RKCM]

Buying shots from a place that stores the shots and ensures they are shipped safely is the key. Our vet discounts our shots and we give the first shots. It is just as cheap to have him give them with a check up before they leave to their new homes. I agree with not taking them to the office until they are vacinated and have some protection. We require that they be given as recommended.

The herding breeds and some sighthounds carry a genetic mutation that can cause a fatal neurotoxic reaction to ivermectin. It is safer to give these dogs Interceptor per our vet. There is also a DNA blood test available if you own one of the affected breeds. I am not aware of any doberman that has this mutation and died of preventives. Those not on the preventives run a risk.

If you don't give preventives and you dog has heartworms the treatment can be very damaging to the heart, liver, and kidney. Many of the dogs don't recover and if they do, they do suffer from problems with the meds to cure them. Also, it is very easy to miss the early stages of heartworms and making recovery harder on the dog. Yearly testing is recommended but without preventives.......it is a greater risk to the dog.

We don't breed that often, but of Lucy's littermates all have been on preventives and all will be 10 this year. No problems with their liver, heart, or kidneys at this point. Although, preventives may have some risks, they are far less than the treatment. There is no Scientific research that I could find that had a safe treatment of heartworms and no research on holistic cures...........so for us, we require all dogs that come from us to have preventives, shots, and basic care as recommended. It is more like vacinating your children. Their are risks with all meds, but more risks if you don't.

[South Paw]

I just wanted to say thanks for all of the thought provoking info about vaccinations. I have always treated for heartworm all year long, as I live in southern Illinois and the mosquitoes are terrible! But I have always thought that the vets over vaccinate. I quit vaccinating my 14 year old Jack Russel a couple of years ago with the exception of rabies. But I have a red dobe girl that is just over a year old and im glad this was brought up, im still unsure about what im going to do about all the vaccinations for her. She's had everything reccommended so far including the new "flu" vaccine even though my vet DOESNT like to give it. I ONLY did that because the training center we go to for agility REQUIRES it & she loves her agility. I did want to ask if anyone knows of the flea "homeade" mixes that work to please share. I spend a LOT of money on flea treatments every year & would love to save on something cheaper that works!

[Hall's Dobes]

Pam do they export?

[Panama]

Jeffer's no longer ships vaccines to Canada, so I'd say no Chris, but call them and see if they could recommend something on your side of the pond.

http://www.jefferspet.com/shipping-info/a/5/

[Shadowlands]

I just wanted to say thanks for all of the thought provoking info about vaccinations. I have always treated for heartworm all year long, as I live in southern Illinois and the mosquitoes are terrible! But I have always thought that the vets over vaccinate. I quit vaccinating my 14 year old Jack Russel a couple of years ago with the exception of rabies. But I have a red dobe girl that is just over a year old and im glad this was brought up, im still unsure about what im going to do about all the vaccinations for her. She's had everything reccommended so far including the new "flu" vaccine even though my vet DOESNT like to give it. I ONLY did that because the training center we go to for agility REQUIRES it & she loves her agility. I did want to ask if anyone knows of the flea "homeade" mixes that work to please share. I spend a LOT of money on flea treatments every year & would love to save on something cheaper that works!

What I would recommend is having her titers checked (simple blood test) and this tests to see what she is still protected against. If she has low counts this will tell you what to immunize for. What I also recommend is doing some research for yourself too. With your own research you can feel more confident in any decision you may make. :)
I love these forums but what I learn I also try to back up on my own as on these we are getting info third hand and sometimes more. Just my opinion of course. :)

[Shadowlands]

Now as for the heartworm I have only one question: for those that give heartworm medications, why do you test every year?

[RKCM]

We test every year because if you miss a dose, the dog could be infected. It's just a safeguard. Most vets don't require retesting if you have been giving the meds all year but for those of us that want to be sure, we do it with their yearly checkup. They will not prescribe heartworm meds without a script either. Remember to that when all you do is yearly tests, you risk the larve being missed and a big risk to health. Treatment for heartworms runs at least $500 a dog here so a $6-7 pill is nothing if you look at expense. The treatment and damage to the heart and organs can be life long if they live.

Vaccinations are required to obtain a Canine Good Citizenship Certificate (CGC). This means up to date shots. Many areas require a dog to have a CGC to allow them to be kept in certain areas, Apartments, and a way around some idiotic dog legislation that prohibits certain breeds. In my club, a CGC is required prior to becoming a therapy dog. You have to sign a certificate that you will give vaccinations as recommended. In addition, if you show your dog, other dog owners expect you to have your dogs vaccinated and in some areas they can ask for proof. The top training clubs here require a shot record and vet signature of health at least yearly. Titers aren't accepted unless you dog has had a reaction to a shot either because of a genetic mutation or allergic reaction to certain drugs which is common in herding breeds, but that is rare since there are meds that a vet can have on hand if there is a problem. Many shots are good more than a year and yearly shots are between you and your vet. In my experience with dobermans and toy dogs, I have never had a dog react to a vaccine ever and never had them come down with that. All have lived to at least 9 and most over 10.....so we recommend vaccines for these reasons. Pam, gave a list of shots and expensive.....our vet charges about $2 more a puppy and well worth it. Most of the time we give the shots and we always give the first one at home.

On fleas, I use frontline plus on our dogs during the summer months. They romp in a fenced area that is about an acre and in our area their are many fleas and ticks. I will say that in recent years, our guineas and free range chickens that are outside the fence, have cut down on that population to a large degree. I swell up when fleas or ticks bite, so can't have any on my dogs. It works for us.

I have a friend in Texas that gives her dobes 2 brewer yeast taps a day for fleas and garlic taps, but I found that it didn't work fully. It did cut down on them when I used it. I just can't have fleas or ticks with housedogs. Guys, these things hurt! They are also a big cause of skin problems, as many can't take the bite.

We follow the recommendations for shots by our vet and really we do so much business with him in testing, ears, etc. that our shots aren't much and something we won't skip.

[von Cosack Dobermann]

Forgot a very important point if your exhibiting your dog at conformation shows you may want to consider immunizations to safe guard against dogs that might be from different areas and carrying illness. Kennel cough would be the first I think of and if the handler has a number of clients on hand your dog will be open to any and all infections that might be present. When dealing with hundreds of dogs at one time the percentages rise quickly. I don't know if theres extended circuits anymore but if your dog ventures out on a long distance circuit prevention is a must.
Just remember that all these preventative measures are poison, moderation is something I alway preach weither its food or suppliments so when it comes to poisons I guess minimal use is suggested. Right!!! Von:cool:

[Shadowlands]

Ultimately Von, I think the last part of that post was what I was trying to get at.
Thanks. :)

[RKCM]

Understood what you meant, Shadow and for you in Canada this may work.
I do understand that we put alot of poisons in our dogs but showing and working our dogs in the south........it is just required to ensure they do not pick up the diseases. Also, mother dogs give protection to their puppies during nursing. We just have to do what we feel keeps them safe. It has worked for us.......and yes, Von they are around more dogs when handlers visit, they attend shows, and work in an obedience club with many many dogs. Our dogs are at a higher risks. We give shots as recommended and require it of our puppies.

[von Cosack Dobermann]

..............don't give them to a bitch ready to be bred!!!!!! and definetely not to a nursing dam!!!!!! Thanx for reminding me! Von

[RKCM]

..............don't give them to a bitch ready to be bred!!!!!! and definetely not to a nursing dam!!!!!! Thanx for reminding me! Von

You are right on that one 4 sure!

[Shadowlands]

Understood what you meant, Shadow and for you in Canada this may work.
I do understand that we put alot of poisons in our dogs but showing and working our dogs in the south........it is just required to ensure they do not pick up the diseases. Also, mother dogs give protection to their puppies during nursing. We just have to do what we feel keeps them safe. It has worked for us.......and yes, Von they are around more dogs when handlers visit, they attend shows, and work in an obedience club with many many dogs. Our dogs are at a higher risks. We give shots as recommended and require it of our puppies.

But I am not talking about puppies, to be clear. I am refering to one year and older. I believe puppies should be fully vaccinated and I would never tell someone not to. What I am refering to is the yearly vaccinations thereafter.

It has nothing to do with location, whether it be down in the south or up here.

The vets are the ones that "recommend" yearly shots...the manufacturers do not as they were designed to last years. But the titers HAVE to be tested yearly to know that the dog is still fully vaccinated by a previous injection. If the test shows low or no levels of a certain immunization, then you can readminister the one that is needed.

To not vaccinate at all is being irresponsible and you don't deserve to own a dog and I am in NO WAY saying not to vaccinate puppies. My opinion is for those 12 months and older.

As for the heartworm, again that has nothing to do with my being in Canada as we have horrendous mosquitos up here also, it has to do with my own personal research and my opinion on said research. I do not condemn nor condone anyone elses opinion on these meds. I was simply inquiring as to what others thought, or if they were even questioning it, in light of a fair amount of research that has been brought about the last few years.

[RKCM]

Understand that you didn't mean puppies, as all should be vaccinated. I think some of the old timers, will not use titers until there is more research on how reliable they are and for how long. For us, we follow what the mfg. suggests and our vet goes with that too. Unlike some vets, he is interested in our dogs being healthy and safe. A 3 yr rabies is accepted in our state. The DHLP is usually a yearly shot for dogs that arent puppies. My question on the titers is how do you know how long they last? How reliable are they? How long does it take to get the results back and how often should you test? I mean lots of unanswered questions for those that have given shots for 30 years without problems......there are questions. I might think differently if my dogs had a reaction to a shot but since they never had......just unsure on the reliability of titers.

I understand that heartworms are in all of the states and southern Canada but your season is not the same as in the south. For instance, in Houston they have mosquitos nearly all year because it seldom freezes. I would think with a longer season, you have more of a risk. Add that to the fact that we live in the country where dogs are dumped and ya know have never been on preventives or had shots.

Nothing against what you are doing, just that we are going with vaccinations because it's worked for us and we don't want to risk more without assurances. And like I said before, it's required by the CGC and expected to be given by most of the show people....obedience and conformation.

[Panama]

I have requested the Bordetella vaccine (kennel cough) even when the vet said it wasn't necessary. Some administer it by injection and some administer the nasal drops. Any time dogs are going to be in a confined area with numerous other dogs, I would highly recommend it be kept updated.

I've dealt with Kennel Cough with fosters, and it is miserable.

[Twiggy]

I vaccinate for Rabies ( 3 yr inoculation) Bordatella when in class or exhibiting or as mentioned when a Rescue enters the enviorment, H/W is by Ivomectrin (12 month) regardless of temperature (it only takes one renegade mosquito) the rest of the normal inoculations are given by myself and certainly not yearly. As I think was previously mentioned the vets and the pharmaceutical industry is who subscribes to yearly! And after reading much I am not convinced that yearly is a requirement except perhaps when placing a dog to assure the new owner. I do believe that the dogs enviornment plays a large part in the protocal. Dogs that actively hunt, or do field work are perhaps candidates for timely regiment. Those that are couch potaotes perhaps not so much!

[MountainPonies]

There are many studies and DVM opinions now who agree that overvaccination is affecting the health and longevity of all dogs. Responsible educated dog owners certainly need to follow their local and state laws, because those laws were instituted to deal with regional needs. HOWEVER, I would never, in the face of all the current research over vaccinate my dog if it was not legally mandated..... Just because it is what WAS expected in the past - before we had research to support the changing protocols.

It was Colorado State that because of their vet school research study, recommended changing the small animal vaccine protocol. It was over 10 years ago that they made the recommendation to change from every year to every 3 years.

With a breed that does not have the "healthiest" of immune systems - vaccinating every year is especially not recommended. Over vaccination can cause very serious health issues. These research studies are all now readily available on the internet. For those interested in learning about the latest suggested vaccine protocols you only need to google vaccine prototcol, vaccine induced disease, and vaccine adverse reactions.

[Panama]

Does anyone use Ivomectrin as a H/W preventative?

[MountainPonies]

Yes I do, and so do most of my horse friends who also have dogs

[Panama]

The only time I've had to use it was on a foster with Demodectic mange.
How much, how often?

[RKCM]

I used it years ago, Pam, but it is just easier for us to give the heartworm pill. Many use it and I did it years ago with the toys.

As far as vaccines, very true studies have said we over vacinate but we do it yearly and especially before a dog is bred. REquired by law I think and since our dogs are always with other dogs, we think it is just safer or a choice of two evils, maybe. Our vet tells us the titers r not always correct and we just do what is recommended. We do heartworm preventatives monthly and hate to do that but it is spread by having people that have dogs that are infected. They don't show signs and it only takes one mosquito to make your dog very sick if not kill them. With the pills, it also keeps the dog worm free and with the Ivermec, never got the dose that would kill it all.

Not sure that this is best but with all my dogs living to old age, it works for us so far.

[RKCM]

The only time I've had to use it was on a foster with Demodectic mange.
How much, how often?

Never had mange on our rescues or dogs, but you can call one of the people that sell it. I wouldn't want to tell you wrong. Revival will give you the dosage you can call 1 800 786 4751. Most I know use the injectable but they give it by mouth. Not sure why injectable but just what was recommened and you do not inject it!!! LOL Call them and they are helpful. They did not give the dosage for the worms so all and all with only a few dogs, easier to just do the pill.