Sold as is! $250.00

[Twiggy]

Interesting statement to be used in selling a puppy/dog! (reminds me of a used car lot, with the employess wearing plaid pants) I recently looked at a very popular puppies for sale site and found and ad, that essentially stated : ( it has since been removed, can't imagine WHY.) .."a puppy sold without reg papers, "as is", (no mention of altering prior to sale or after) even though the parents are of Champion lines. The breeder has a website, although someone really needs to proof the material, spelling is atrocious..My feeling is, if a breeder, witholds papers, that certainly does not render the dog unbreedable, merely not with AKC...and eliminates the breeders name from any future puppies. And has been mentioned all too may times, there are registries, hungry, to register anything that resembles the breed in question. they generally use the word "foundation" ..I just believe, if you don't want a dog bred, alter prior to sale, forget the contract, they are only as good as the person you are selling too is responible and let's not forget Honest...might be interesting to view others opinions!

[arwclubhouse]

Selling a dog as??????

Yeah! Has three legs...missing an eye and 17 teeth...ear chewed but infection is almost cleared up....Goes by the name of Lucky!!!

I can only imagine!!!

I feel so sorry for the poor dog!!! :(

Hopefully he finds a better home than where he's at!!!

[Twiggy]

Selling a dog as??????

Yeah! Has three legs...missing an eye and 17 teeth...ear chewed but infection is almost cleared up....Goes by the name of Lucky!!!

I can only imagine!!!

I feel so sorry for the poor dog!!! :(

Hopefully he finds a better home than where he's at!!!No that is what one would imagine, but there was a photo attached of a "stacked" puppy. Show add that is was a NICE stack, someone knew what they were doing! If it was the puppy in question. When reviewing the website, there was Ch pedigree. But as I mentioned, the ad is now gone or else I would have posted it "word for word"

[arwclubhouse]

No that is what one would imagine, but there was a photo attached of a "stacked" puppy. Show add that is was a NICE stack, someone knew what they were doing! If it was the puppy in question. When reviewing the website, there was Ch pedigree. But as I mentioned, the ad is now gone or else I would have posted it "word for word"


Ref the bold of mine, "That's" the BIG question. :mad:

[Twiggy]

Ref the bold of mine, "That's" the BIG question. :mad:Yeah, but also IF I were a breeder with a WEBSITE, and seling a puppy, any puppy, under that condition, I would certainly not attach my Website to the ad!!!!Just didn't make sense until you researched the breeder, BUT as I mentioned, the ad is gone...

[arwclubhouse]

Yeah, but also IF I were a breeder with a WEBSITE, and seling a puppy, any puppy, under that condition, I would certainly not attach my Website to the ad!!!!Just didn't make sense until you researched the breeder, BUT as I mentioned, the ad is gone...

I may be naive but I would like to believe at least 99% of all breeders would have that same high standard and not do it in the first place!

[TrinityDobes]

Interesting statement to be used in selling a puppy/dog! (reminds me of a used car lot, with the employess wearing plaid pants) I recently looked at a very popular puppies for sale site and found and ad, that essentially stated : ( it has since been removed, can't imagine WHY.) .."a puppy sold without reg papers, "as is", (no mention of altering prior to sale or after) even though the parents are of Champion lines. The breeder has a website, although someone really needs to proof the material, spelling is atrocious..My feeling is, if a breeder, witholds papers, that certainly does not render the dog unbreedable, merely not with AKC...and eliminates the breeders name from any future puppies. And has been mentioned all too may times, there are registries, hungry, to register anything that resembles the breed in question. they generally use the word "foundation" ..I just believe, if you don't want a dog bred, alter prior to sale, forget the contract, they are only as good as the person you are selling too is responible and let's not forget Honest...might be interesting to view others opinions!

Twiggy Scamming puppy buyers is a huge business, the fact that the add has been removed is probably because someone reported the ad as a scammer.

Scammers have become very sophisticated - they build Fake Websites or even direct people to legit breeder sites, and steal photos from legitimate breeder websites, to scam buyers as to the quality of their fake pups that they don't really have, but steal your money when selling to you.

I only advertise on a few websites, the ones that check new advertisers, emails and IPs - I get probably 5-6 notices from these sites a year that someone has submitted an ad for a puppy for sale, directing buyers to my website, but using a different contact email than is associated with my website and my ad. The Site managers always advise the new ad has been put on hold until I advise if I have given permission for someone else to use my URL and a different email address. I of course say no, and this ad is not allowed to be listed.

Most sites do not do this sadly - PuppyFind is notorious for scammer sites.

at least once a month I check all the dobe puppy for sale ads, just to be sure no one has pirated my photos. When I find someone that has - I report them to the site administrator!

Bad spelling is a hallmark of a scammer website as well as incorrect grammer. The ad you saw may have been legit, but I bet its a scammer website. You can also go to "Who Is.com" to check who really owns the domain,and then see how many other domains they own. I found one scammer with 250 domain names listed!

[Shadowlands]

I may be naive but I would like to believe at least 99% of all breeders would have that same high standard and not do it in the first place!

Herein lies the problem with that. These days pups are shipped to their new homes, which is fine. However, with an ad like this, there really would be no guarantee that the pup that was shipped is the one in the picture. Anyone who sells a pup AS IS is a breeder to stay away from.

Going to guess no health tests done or maybe no vaccines by the breeder were given? Either way, that would be a gamble I would not place any bets on.

As for 99% of all breeders...that entirely depends on what you would classify a breeder.

[arwclubhouse]

Wow Trinity, it's sad and depressing to see and learn how low some people in this world have stooped! :(

[Twiggy]

Wow Trinity, it's sad and depressing to see and learn how low some people in this world have stooped! :(It is sad...I do not know the breeder personally but have heard less than admirable things concerning them. And yet they have one of the top pedigree is the country.

and TRINITY>>>, unfortunately you are so right in your statements. It is again, sad, the internet has definatley been good on a lot BUT oh how many things have gone downhill...poor spelling is not necessarily only true with spammers it is simple things like their vs there, confirmation vs conformation, neutered vs nutured, spade vs spayed, and yet you will see these items on legitimate websites. Guess my feeling is IF I had a WEBSITE and were paying to have this site and am allowing to be ALL OVER THE WORLD..I would want to maintain creibilty not only through a breeding program, ethics in placing puppies but also the presentation!

[TrinityDobes]

Twiggy, I went the route of having someone "maintain" my website and it was too frustrating to be sure - college educated kid could NOT spell *grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*

I guess it was not a scammer then if you know and have seen this "person" advertising before.

BTW the scammers do it with lots of animals including horses, ponies, goats etc.

Doing proper screening is priority one to ensure buyers don't lie to get good bloodlines. Thats another reason why I register all pups in my name to ensure the pups are registered with LIMITED registration. Of Course someone could take that male or female and register it with one of these new, less than credible registries, which only require photos and your word that the parents are who you say they are.

No matter how much you try to ensure it does not happen, there's a liar and a theif thinking of new ways to steal someone elses hard work.

[Twiggy]

Trinity...Wanted to aslo ad, that i have heard of Websites being hijacked so in all honesty perhaps it can't be ruled out!

[Twiggy]

Twiggy, I went the route of having someone "maintain" my website and it was too frustrating to be sure - college educated kid could NOT spell *grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*

I guess it was not a scammer then if you know and have seen this "person" advertising before.

BTW the scammers do it with lots of animals including horses, ponies, goats etc.

Doing proper screening is priority one to ensure buyers don't lie to get good bloodlines. Thats another reason why I register all pups in my name to ensure the pups are registered with LIMITED registration. Of Course someone could take that male or female and register it with one of these new, less than credible registries, which only require photos and your word that the parents are who you say they are.

No matter how much you try to ensure it does not happen, there's a liar and a theif thinking of new ways to steal someone elses hard work.
you are so right, and unfortunately the only sure fire way is to alter prior to placement. But with dobermans, my opinion being they should not be altered until at least 12 months of age!

[Shadowlands]

That is very true in regards to the spelling and I am going to sound like an old lady saying this, but texting has not helped in regards to spelling. Since this world has moved its communication to the electronically written word, one would think that the use of the english language, spelling and grammar would greatly improve. Why then does it seem to have worsen?

As for the scammers, they, like puppy mills will always work and be worth their effort because the average person either doesn't care or doesn't know where their pup comes from. Having said that, I know of a 'breeder' that sounds very knowledgeable and is riding on the coattails of her mothers reputable kennel name in order to sell her whares. Too bad she is selling Goldendoodles for $2500.00 a piece by telling folks they are guaranteed hypoallergenic, oh, and did you know that if you produce 7 generations of the same mutt it now becomes a real breed? Yep, it does, cause she said so on her site. And she has even started to mix poodles with Bernese Mtn. dogs.

[Twiggy]

Just thought that prhaps I should add a few more positive thought to this thread. I for one have respect for the breeder that has a goal in mind, realizes all facets of breeeding. there are always those few, well probably more than a few this day and age whose only concern is money. Money is should be a concern in any breeding program. ets face it health testing dosen't come cheap. Nor does care of the bitch and puppies or for that matter even the stud dog. I just guess, my issue is with those that do what they want but tell others what to do!!! Kind of like do as I say and not as I do!!!

[arwclubhouse]

Herein lies the problem with that. These days pups are shipped to their new homes, which is fine. However, with an ad like this, there really would be no guarantee that the pup that was shipped is the one in the picture. Anyone who sells a pup AS IS is a breeder to stay away from.

Going to guess no health tests done or maybe no vaccines by the breeder were given? Either way, that would be a gamble I would not place any bets on.

As for 99% of all breeders...that entirely depends on what you would classify a breeder.

I can definately relate to that Shadow. I had quite a lot of correspondence initially with Gino's breeder prior to selecting him. I always asked for pictures of the pups and noticed after choosing Gino, that he had a small scar between his nose and eye on his right cheek. Apparently the scar was from a bite from one of his littermates and as luck would have it he was the only one with a scar.

Obviously when he was delivered to us, the scar was the first thing I checked for and sure enough there it was!

[Twiggy]

That is very true in regards to the spelling and I am going to sound like an old lady saying this, but texting has not helped in regards to spelling. Since this world has moved its communication to the electronically written word, one would think that the use of the english language, spelling and grammar would greatly improve. Why then does it seem to have worsen?

As for the scammers, they, like puppy mills will always work and be worth their effort because the average person either doesn't care or doesn't know where their pup comes from. Having said that, I know of a 'breeder' that sounds very knowledgeable and is riding on the coattails of her mothers reputable kennel name in order to sell her whares. Too bad she is selling Goldendoodles for $2500.00 a piece by telling folks they are guaranteed hypoallergenic, oh, and did you know that if you produce 7 generations of the same mutt it now becomes a real breed? Yep, it does, cause she said so on her site. And she has even started to mix poodles with Bernese Mtn. dogs.Oh, don't get me started on DESIGNER breeds, or mutts as I affectionally refer to them!!! NOT SO!!! Let not forget the fabulous Weimerdoodle!! What the hell...the ChiWeenie, and then they are ACTUALLY registered with Hybrid Association!!!!!Hmmm, can we say stupid buyers???? My spelling isn't really bad but my typing on the other hand SUCKS!!!!

[TrinityDobes]

>>>>>>Twiggy - I absolutely, totally, 100% disagree with early spays and neuters, there is too much research now years later to support that there are more pros than cons to waiting for maturity to do either proceedure and in a breed that has immune system problems and where we are reducing longevity instead of increasing it - owners need to educate themselves and make an informed choice, knowing the consequences. Todays vets are loosing revenues left and right through reduced vaccines and topical treatments that just are not necessary. IMHO thats why most vets really bring a lot of pressure to bear on their clients to spay / neuter often.

>>>>>>Shadowlands - Pure bred dogs are in trouble, even with puppy mills AKC registrations across the board are down, and IMHO that is what drove allowing non-purebred dogs to enter AKC events to come into being. Also the AKC recognized a record number of NEW breeds last year - breeds that did not have to wait near as long as new breeds or the past. Again, I think this fast tract to recognition is driven to make up the lost registration dollars.

The UKC has also majorly cut into AKCs recognized event dollars. UKC has a great relaxed atmosphere where owner handling is encouraged to level the playing field. So that it is really more about the dogs being judged not the handlers. UKC also has Neutered and Spayed competitions!!! to encourage people to still show their dogs and have them evaluated for quality and excellence to the breed standard. why do you need the sex organs to make your dog worthy of being shown? I am hoping to show my guys this summer or fall in the UKC events - my area does not have many UKC shows, but I am going to hit as many as i can!

[Twiggy]

>>>>>>Twiggy - I absolutely, totally, 100% disagree with early spays and neuters, there is too much research now years later to support that there are more pros than cons to waiting for maturity to do either proceedure and in a breed that has immune system problems and where we are reducing longevity instead of increasing it - owners need to educate themselves and make an informed choice, knowing the consequences. Todays vets are loosing revenues left and right through reduced vaccines and topical treatments that just are not necessary. IMHO thats why most vets really bring a lot of pressure to bear on their clients to spay / neuter often.

>>>>>>Shadowlands - Pure bred dogs are in trouble, even with puppy mills AKC registrations across the board are down, and IMHO that is what drove allowing non-purebred dogs to enter AKC events to come into being. Also the AKC recognized a record number of NEW breeds last year - breeds that did not have to wait near as long as new breeds or the past. Again, I think this fast tract to recognition is driven to make up the lost registration dollars.

The UKC has also majorly cut into AKCs recognized event dollars. UKC has a great relaxed atmosphere where owner handling is encouraged to level the playing field. So that it is really more about the dogs being judged not the handlers. UKC also has Neutered and Spayed competitions!!! to encourage people to still show their dogs and have them evaluated for quality and excellence to the breed standard. why do you need the sex organs to make your dog worthy of being shown? I am hoping to show my guys this summer or fall in the UKC events - my area does not have many UKC shows, but I am going to hit as many as i can!I too agree with NO, early spays as I had mentioned earlier,Humane socities, rescues, etc encourage early spays some as young as 7 weeks! ! however, to me that is the only sure fire way of guaranteeing a dog is not used for reasons other than intended by the breeder. this goes back to vigilance and contracts, and as mentioned people LIE to get what they want. A breeder always has to be one step ahead! My vet will not a touch a large breed dog until 12 months.....As for the UKC, a professional handler CAN show a dog as long as he is co owned bythe handler. And I have seen this type of activity. But then there comes the definition of professional, is it someone who gets paid to handle, or is it a breeder who handles dogs for owners, but yet is definately professional! I was not aware that UKC had altered classes, that is great. And again, I agree that there (AKC) should be a class other than Veterans for altered dogs,,,but after all conformation is for breeding stock, so why should an altered dog potetially take points from a breeding dog! see, I knew this thread could be interesting and informative...LOL...One last thing, I personally don't have a problem with a "mutt" in a performance category....Hell, I might loose to a Weimerdoodle or worse, a ChiWeenie....ughhh

[Panama]

Don't mean to be a pest, but the Altered Classes with UKC, do not compete with intact dogs.

[TrinityDobes]

Don't mean to be a pest, but the Altered Classes with UKC, do not compete with intact dogs.

Very good point Panama - they do not compete against each other - but UKC has thought out of the traditional AKC box to offer classes that are well attened and enjoyed from what I can tell.

With UKC the handler is not supposed to be paid, and yes a co-owner (i.e. professional handler) can go in the ring, but it just feels more sociable, more friendly, more inviting. your average owner feels like they can have a chance to win with their dog in UKC without spending the $10 to15K you typically need to finish in Dobes.

IMHO I think the Dog shows have lost their original intention. It should be about validating breeding stock or offspring of breeding stock to ensure the breed standard is being adhered to and the conformation and type that defines any breed is being maintained by the breeders.

If some of the early breeders, could see what goes on in the Doberman ring today, I guarantee they would be horrified. Dogs shows have become too much about money. Yes there are some owner handled dogs that finish, but these owner/handlers are almost as good as the professionals and spend almost as much time as the professional handlers chasing their points.

Handlers need to make a living showing dogs, attracting top handlers who bring lots of entries are essential for the dog show to make money. The judge needs to put up the professional handlers, or he won't be hired next time around, if he does not follow the trend with pinning the dog of the day that has been winning on the circuit, the handler will boycott any show where the judge is scheduled to be. Its an incestuous relationship where each participant is very interdependant on each other to be make money.

That is one of the things that I like about IABCA - you get reviewed by 3 judges and they have the integrity to write down exactly why they scored your dog the way they did, and they are approachable to ask questions.

WOW I guess I've steered this thread pretty far off course - sorry Twiggy *grin*

[Twiggy]

Very good point Panama - they do not compete against each other - but UKC has thought out of the traditional AKC box to offer classes that are well attened and enjoyed from what I can tell.

With UKC the handler is not supposed to be paid, and yes a co-owner (i.e. professional handler) can go in the ring, but it just feels more sociable, more friendly, more inviting. your average owner feels like they can have a chance to win with their dog in UKC without spending the $10 to15K you typically need to finish in Dobes.

IMHO I think the Dog shows have lost their original intention. It should be about validating breeding stock or offspring of breeding stock to ensure the breed standard is being adhered to and the conformation and type that defines any breed is being maintained by the breeders.

If some of the early breeders, could see what goes on in the Doberman ring today, I guarantee they would be horrified. Dogs shows have become too much about money. Yes there are some owner handled dogs that finish, but these owner/handlers are almost as good as the professionals and spend almost as much time as the professional handlers chasing their points.

Handlers need to make a living showing dogs, attracting top handlers who bring lots of entries are essential for the dog show to make money. The judge needs to put up the professional handlers, or he won't be hired next time around, if he does not follow the trend with pinning the dog of the day that has been winning on the circuit, the handler will boycott any show where the judge is scheduled to be. Its an incestuous relationship where each participant is very interdependant on each other to be make money.

That is one of the things that I like about IABCA - you get reviewed by 3 judges and they have the integrity to write down exactly why they scored your dog the way they did, and they are approachable to ask questions.

WOW I guess I've steered this thread pretty far off course - sorry Twiggy *grin*

I don't think it is off course, there is so much to be learned regardless of how or where it comes from. I also prefer the IABCA but I get so fraustrated at the lack of respect from others concerning the titles. My question has always been, if it is worthless why are so many AKC Ch exhibited, and second if the the quality of the dogs gnerally presented is so low then I would assume the exhibition of the AKC Ch would improve that quality? Right..? I alos remeber reading on another forum, that many members considered an IABCA Best in Show also worthless!! I have always enjoyed the commraderie and I will even goo as far to say frienship offered to the newbie at these shows. The judges as you mentioned are AKC and International and the standard follows the AKC. I find it amusing how many breeders who have dogs that are "too big" will indicate that they are showable in the AKC but are in the IABCA. The standard is almost identical... I guess it is to "each their own"

[Panama]

Oh yeah! I will definitely agree on the UKC & IABCA atmosphere and friendliness of both exhibitors as well as spectators. When I started in UKC, I was totally floored at how helpful other exhibitors were.

I see more and more AKC Champions being shown in UKC & IABCA shows. Good point!!! If neither of the venues have worthy titles, why do they bother to migrate across venues?

Funny thing is... the AKC handlers that I've met at AKC shows... were way to busy to even speak. But meet them at a UKC show... they're totally different people!

[Twiggy]

Oh yeah! I will definitely agree on the UKC & IABCA atmosphere and friendliness of both exhibitors as well as spectators. When I started in UKC, I was totally floored at how helpful other exhibitors were.

I see more and more AKC Champions being shown in UKC & IABCA shows. Good point!!! If neither of the venues have worthy titles, why do they bother to migrate across venues?

Funny thing is... the AKC handlers that I've met at AKC shows... were way to busy to even speak. But meet them at a UKC show... they're totally different people!

I did ask someome that question and was told "it's just another title to add" But lets face, why add a non important title, especially with the price of gas, transportation, not to mention hotels and the cost the IABCA entries. There are just two standards for everything! But ya know what, I like the IABCA, win or lose, and wish that there were UKC events in my area! So you go Panama, enjoy and good luck..!!! Keep us posted..