What makes Breeders Ethical

[Big Dogs]

I'm asking this question because I think it bears some answers for those that do not breed! For a breeder to be ethical should they have they ability to take there puppies back? I'f yes should they be able to take most if not all of there puppies back and have the means and facilities to support it? Do you have to campaign your dogs to be considered an ethical breeder or can you just breed for confirmation and temperament and longevity? How many dogs should a breeder have before they are considered to have to many? I'f the breeder has runs with dogs in them would this be considered a negative? Since most breeders are testing there dogs for many things anymore and some of that cost is being passed on to the purchaser should there be a section in the contract that states if the dog passes away prematurely with any of those ailments that were tested for that the customer should have there dog replaced at no charge or have the vet bill reimbursed for the ailment? There are many breeders on here along with many first time and potential first time dog owners. Many people ask questions concerning specific breeders and about showing and testing and many other areas that people may not be familiar with so I'm posing these questions to the breeders on here to answer first and then give any of there insight as to why they feel the way they do about there answers.

[Big Dogs]

Well I was kind of waiting for the breeders on here to explain there stance but that doesn't seem to be happening for some reason! Bite's really didn't answer any of my questions except that they should take back all of there dogs which I seriously doubt most small breeders are capable of doing it even at 1 or 2 litters per year those numbers would be to much for most to handle not alone with most municipalities and special licencing and inspections they would fall under that most try to avoid. After all 2 litters in 2 years could be upwards of 20 dogs or more or even 2 litters in 3yrs yes it is an extreme example but nothing is out of the question. I still would like to know how many dogs are to many and if you see dogs in out side runs would they consider this to be a bad thing! As for the health testing question I think it's a fair question if the purchaser has taken care of there dog and kept up with there health requirements shouldn't a breeder that says up front that they health test for this and that and most use it as a selling point shouldn't the purchaser have the dog replaced or if they continue to keep the dog and try to maintain the dogs health at least be reimbursed in part for there efforts after all they were told there dog was tested and passed? I really didn't want links to a PR statement from organization. The DPCA and the AKC are fine organizations but as the DPCA says in there own statement the only thing there member ship shows is the person was concerned enough to spend the money to be a member it does not guarantee they are a reputable breeder as this also applies to the AKC but this really has nothing to do with what I was asking the breeders on hear, I wanted to hear from breeders on hear as to my questions but it doesn't seem to be happening it is a very easy format to follow go through the questions answer the questions and tell why you feel that way!
1.Should a breeder be able to take all of there puppies back and should they also have the facility and means to support it?
2.Do you have to campaign your dogs to be considered an ethical breeder or can you breed for just longevity, temperament and confirmation and still be considered ethical?
3.How many dogs should a breeder have before it is considered to many? Number?
4.I'f a breeder has runs with dogs in them would you consider this to be a red flag? yes/no
5. I'f a breeder health tests and says there dog is clear of the things they were tested for should they replace the dog or subsidize the owner if the dog fails for one of the things tested for. Would this be considered ethical if they did or un ethical if they didn't yes/no. I think these are fair and reasonable questions to ask don't you Jim2? I do not breed dogs and wanted to hear from a breeders view not a trainers view or a dog owners view! As for ethical and reputable they go hand in hand in my opinion!

[Aesa]

Well I was kind of waiting for the breeders on here to explain there stance but that doesn't seem to be happening for some reason! Bite's really didn't answer any of my questions except that they should take back all of there dogs which I seriously doubt most small breeders are capable of doing it even at 1 or 2 litters per year those numbers would be to much for most to handle not alone with most municipalities and special licencing and inspections they would fall under that most try to avoid. After all 2 litters in 2 years could be upwards of 20 dogs or more or even 2 litters in 3yrs yes it is an extreme example but nothing is out of the question. I still would like to know how many dogs are to many and if you see dogs in out side runs would they consider this to be a bad thing! As for the health testing question I think it's a fair question if the purchaser has taken care of there dog and kept up with there health requirements shouldn't a breeder that says up front that they health test for this and that and most use it as a selling point shouldn't the purchaser have the dog replaced or if they continue to keep the dog and try to maintain the dogs health at least be reimbursed in part for there efforts after all they were told there dog was tested and passed? I really didn't want links to a PR statement from organization. The DPCA and the AKC are fine organizations but as the DPCA says in there own statement the only thing there member ship shows is the person was concerned enough to spend the money to be a member it does not guarantee they are a reputable breeder as this also applies to the AKC but this really has nothing to do with what I was asking the breeders on hear, I wanted to hear from breeders on hear as to my questions but it doesn't seem to be happening it is a very easy format to follow go through the questions answer the questions and tell why you feel that way!
1.Should a breeder be able to take all of there puppies back and should they also have the facility and means to support it?
2.Do you have to campaign your dogs to be considered an ethical breeder or can you breed for just longevity, temperament and confirmation and still be considered ethical?
3.How many dogs should a breeder have before it is considered to many? Number?
4.I'f a breeder has runs with dogs in them would you consider this to be a red flag? yes/no
5. I'f a breeder health tests and says there dog is clear of the things they were tested for should they replace the dog or subsidize the owner if the dog fails for one of the things tested for. Would this be considered ethical if they did or un ethical if they didn't yes/no. I think these are fair and reasonable questions to ask don't you Jim2? I do not breed dogs and wanted to hear from a breeders view not a trainers view or a dog owners view! As for ethical and reputable they go hand in hand in my opinion!

Great post like always BD and agree, you probably wont get a very straight and honest answer here. But lets see, maybe we get proven wrong. Thanks again for this interessting thread.

[MountainPonies]

Not a breeder but am a life long doberman owner and have several breeder friends of long aquaintance. I will draw on what I know of their policies as I consider them to be responsble good breeders.

1.Should a breeder be able to take all of there puppies back and should they also have the facility and means to support it?
I think that a breeder should take back any puppy at any time for the lifetime of the puppy - If people are properly screened then this is not a lot of dogs - of the 3 breeders I am close with - in 30 years one has been called upon to take back a single pup, the other friend has taken back I think 6 dogs in the last 20 years and the 3rd friend has only been breeding 10 years and she has taken back 2 dogs - all of them have taken back with out question, and at their expense any dog of their breeding - I know they spen a lot of time screening buyers - and this is what keeps the number of returns down imho

2.Do you have to campaign your dogs to be considered an ethical breeder or can you breed for just longevity, temperament and confirmation and still be considered ethical?
Again - I searched for a breeder who specifically showed in obedience and agility, I know enough about horse conformation and teaching conformation to 4h kids that I felt knowlegeable enough to judge sire and dam conformation, as well as have an opinion on prospective pups - so titles on the front end were not that important to me. Of my 3 breeder friends 2 show AKC/UKC 1 shows only Agility / Obedience and is now doing tracking as well. I think if you are looking for a conformation show puppy - your best chance of finding that puppy is with a breeder who has titled sire and dam in order to have the best chance of a prospective conformation show puppy. However if you are looking for a pet/companion - health, longevity and temperament of sire and dam is much more important to me that titles on the front end - some titles on the back end are nice though. So for me - to be a responsible ethical breeder - you don't need titles on both sire and dam to be responsble.
3.How many dogs should a breeder have before it is considered to many? Number?

This to me is individual - my one breeder friend that shows and handles and breeds has a 12 run kennel and she keeps dogs in it - she also has house dogs - she also has 3 children doing Jr Showman ship so when she breeds she has lots of extra hands to ensure the pups (who are raised and managed in the house until 10 weeks) are handled lots and socialized lots. Since she has a lot of help - she handles 4 litters a year easily - she also has 3 dobes she is showing plus the dogs her kids are showing. IMHO you cannot set any arbitrary number of how many is too many- its solely dependent on the man power to propery raise them and of course the waiting lists of waiting sales - only show prospects remain after the rest of the litter goes home.
4.I'f a breeder has runs with dogs in them would you consider this to be a red flag? yes/no No see above, my 2 show dog friends have their dogs spend most of their days in a kennel situations - heated / AC in side long concrete fenced runs outside - most dogs come in the house at nite but not all - this would not be a red flag for me if the dogs were happy, well adjusted, well socialized, and well trained - and the kennel was as clean and orderly as my friends - heck I drop schatzy off occaisionaly when I have to trave and she cannot come with
5. I'f a breeder health tests and says there dog is clear of the things they were tested for should they replace the dog or subsidize the owner if the dog fails for one of the things tested for. Would this be considered ethical if they did or un ethical if they didn't yes/no.
All 3 of my breeder friends have 2 year health guarantees against genetic health issues, this seems to be pretty much the norm from most show breeders. If the breeder is honest they will say that no one can guarantee genetics or how long your dog will live or what kind of health issues may arise because of environmental influences after the puppy leaves the breeder. All 3 of my friends replace pups - for those things outlined in their health guarantees. I don't think a breeder should be held liable for things out of their control such as exercise, drugs, diet, and other environment risks. Just because the SIRE and DAM are CLear of a health issue is no gurantee of the same Clear health status - my vet does a lot of sporting dogs (bird dogs) and he says he sees Excellent OFA hip bred ot Excellent OFA hip produce displastic hip often - hip health has more than just genetics that can and do affect the hips.

I think these are fair and reasonable questions to ask don't you Jim2? I do not breed dogs and wanted to hear from a breeders view not a trainers view or a dog owners view! As for ethical and reputable they go hand in hand in my opinion!
I think sometimes buyers place unfair and unrealistic expectations on dog breeders as opposed to cats, birds, fish, horses etc. It is my firm belief that you cannot legislate anyones ethics or morals - they either conduct themselves with integrity or they do not - to me the best reference or indictment of a breeder would be speaking to at least 6 people who have pups over the age of 4 - sorry I know I am not a breeder but a lot of beer and wine has flowed over the lips while i've listened to them talk about these very things

[Panama]

As far as a guarantee, an owner would have to guarantee the dog would do no jumping, road work, until they are 12 months of age with a measured diet.

There is NO guarantee with DCM. Even with the current test available. A pup produced from parents that both test Negative is not guaranteed to not be afflicted with DCM at 5 or 8 yrs of age.

How many breeders test for Cancers? Cancer can rear its ugly head at any time any age.

OFA: A pup produced from Good/Good, Good/Ex parents, is no guaranteed that the pup will not develop HD. Too many variables with HD (see 1st comment), diet, weight, activity....

So... just as an examples, a dog drops dead at 6 yrs old from DCM, both parents tested Negative, do you blame the breeder?

A dog starts having trouble with his/her hips at 5 yrs old, both parents tested good or ex, screened and results come back poor or extreme. Do you blame the breeder? Or that the dog was put on a tread mill at 6 mo old, too much road work, poor quality diet, started on agility jumps before 12 months of age?

Do I feel a breeder should take pups/dogs back? MOST DEFINITELY. They should be responsible for every pup they produce, no matter what, why or when!

But it can't all be blamed on the breeder!

[Glengate]

1.Should a breeder be able to take all of there puppies back and should they also have the facility and means to support it?!

Yes, yes and yes. Breeders should always be prepared to take back a puppy they produced, period. Well, unless they're dead or have become severely disabled or something like that.

2.Do you have to campaign your dogs to be considered an ethical breeder or can you breed for just longevity, temperament and confirmation and still be considered ethical?!

Campaigning is not the same as showing. I feel that breeders should show their dogs, yes. I think that most times those who say they're breeding for conformation but don't show are sadly mistaken and breeding in a vacuum.

3.How many dogs should a breeder have before it is considered to many? Number?!

I don't know the number. I think this one is an individual thing. I've had 10-12 dogs at various times, all living in my house, and I had the time to deal with them. Some people aren't adept at dealing with one. Others handle several very well.

4.I'f a breeder has runs with dogs in them would you consider this to be a red flag? yes/no!

I don't know. It's not my preference. I've never had runs or kennels. My dogs have always lived in the house and have had a big yard to run and play in, and they come in when they're done.

5. I'f a breeder health tests and says there dog is clear of the things they were tested for should they replace the dog or subsidize the owner if the dog fails for one of the things tested for. Would this be considered ethical if they did or un ethical if they didn't yes/no.

I don't know of any intelligent breeder who states the puppy will be clear of anything based on the health results of the parents. My contract specifically says that through testing for problems in the parents, we have attempted to minimize problems in the puppies and although the parents were tested for the following (a list of the health tests performed and the results), there is no absolute guarantee that the puppy or dog won't develop any of the above conditions. Then it goes on to say that if the puppy develops any of the above conditions in the next 5 years, here's what we'll do about it.

[RKCM]

Yes, yes and yes. Breeders should always be prepared to take back a puppy they produced, period. Well, unless they're dead or have become severely disabled or something like that.



Campaigning is not the same as showing. I feel that breeders should show their dogs, yes. I think that most times those who say they're breeding for conformation but don't show are sadly mistaken and breeding in a vacuum.



I don't know the number. I think this one is an individual thing. I've had 10-12 dogs at various times, all living in my house, and I had the time to deal with them. Some people aren't adept at dealing with one. Others handle several very well.



I don't know. It's not my preference. I've never had runs or kennels. My dogs have always lived in the house and have had a big yard to run and play in, and they come in when they're done.



I don't know of any intelligent breeder who states the puppy will be clear of anything based on the health results of the parents. My contract specifically says that through testing for problems in the parents, we have attempted to minimize problems in the puppies and although the parents were tested for the following (a list of the health tests performed and the results), there is no absolute guarantee that the puppy or dog won't develop any of the above conditions. Then it goes on to say that if the puppy develops any of the above conditions in the next 5 years, here's what we'll do about it.

Nice post and a shared opinion. Thanks for posting it with care.

[Big Dogs]

First Mountainponies thanks for giving us info on your friends and your opinion on them I also have a few friends that breed but I really wanted to hear from the breeders there self.
So from what I have read from the breeders that have participated on here is they all agree with taking there puppies back at any point. How about facilities and means to be able to have several returns in a year? As to the campaigning question I will narrow it down to showing as this was my initial meaning? As for how many dogs Glengate is they only one who gave a number for herself of 10-12 in her house and not in outside kennels were these adults or a mix glengate. My meaning for the question was for breeding adults not puppies that was my fault for not properly stating my question. Thank you Glengate for answering all of the questions and giving your reasoning as you are they only breeder that has done so! I do have one question about your response about what you do if one of your puppies develops something they were tested for what do you do? I's this pretty much the standard with breeders?

[Big Dogs]

Debi I'm not sure are you a breeder? I'f you are could you please answer the questions following the format it really doesn't give anyone in sight on a breeders perspective if everyone says count me in on answering your question as we know all people are individuals and no two people are exactly alike in all there opinions. I'f you are not a breeder the questions were geared to a breeders view not from a dog owners view on what a breeder should of shouldn't be as stated in previous posts.

[Big Dogs]

Once again Glengate thank you for answering for you! Bites are you a breeder? Sorry if you are the only breeders that I know for sure are Glengate and RKCM . Panama are you? I'f you are could you guys answer the questions in your own words I feel hearing this from a breeders side would help potential purchasers as to what to expect from there breeder and what things should throw up a red flag and what are legitimate expectations. There is very little commitment on what peoples view are other than taking puppies back and that a breeder should show. Are runs bad or good how many dogs is to many should should the purchaser have any type of health guarantee or warranty on the puppy?

[RKCM]

BD, sorry didn't see this question.

1. All breeders should be able and more than willing to take puppies back.

2. Showing is a way you get new opinions of dogs so I think if the dog wasn't shown I'd like to know why and what the jobs were being done with dog. I prefer shows dogs that can work and would expect them evaluated and have a job of some type.

3. The number depends on the home, the amount of time, and many things. 6 dogs is enough for us and I'd know a few with many more. It is an individual thing depending on many things. With our foster, I've had 8 but that's a lot of us. Just not enough time for what we think is needed. Some people manage better but never so many they can't live with you.

4. My dogs live with me and why I have them.
We have huge yards that they can play in safely and can run full speed, runs don't allow that. I have one run that I use for an old rescue who would jump or climb all fences. I've used it to seperate dogs every once in awhile but seldom. Then, had to take her out on a flex lead. Dobermans for us, are protection dogs that long to live with you and that's where ours live. I prefer them to be housedogs and can't imagion housing them in runs for life.


5. The guarantee would depend on the condition and how it was contacted. So it is a individual decision, not pacifically on our contract but sometimes we do a write in. We have had long lived dogs and keep in close contact with the owners so we would do what is right.

[RKCM]

Red Flags for me? BD, if the dogs were not health tested or did not have some longvity for 3 generations I'd walk away. If the breeder had dogs that ONLY lived in cages, runs, or had no housedogs, I wouldn't be interested in a puppy because I believe they need to be handled from birth and learn from the mother. I'd want to know the purpose of the breeding and would not be interested in a puppy produced because that was their living. If the puppies did not have champions in the first two generations, I would question the breed why and I'd want AKC or Canadian titles on the dogs since my interest is showing and therapy and obedience and I would want to know some of the dogs in the pedigree. Researching pedigrees is important.
One of the common claims is that dogs have champion pedigrees when the Champions are back more than 3 generations, now that's a big red flag since it has little influence that far back. And I'd like to see their old retired dogs are still with them and not just things.

I guess these are just a few things I would look for and I know there are more. Just off the top of my head.