Dogs of Present and Dogs of past

[Big Dogs]

I was looking at some pictures of AKC champions of the 70's and 80's and looking at some pictures of Champions of recent years and there are some incredible differences especially in the neck and head area. Why is that? are the standards of old not the standards of today? I was also looking at other breeds and could not find any who had visibly to the naked eye changed so much.

[Panama]

The German Shepherd has changed drastically!

http://www.royalair.org/pasttopresent.htm

[Big Dogs]

Thanks for the link bites so I'am even more intrigued now have the standards for the breed changed through the years? Another thing I was thinking about in order for a Dobe to be labeled a Champion should they be required to have some kind of working title before they could become eligible to be a AKC Champion since they are working dogs. I know some are I was just wondering what others thought about that idea?

[Panama]

Thanks for the link bites so I'am even more intrigued now have the standards for the breed changed through the years? Another thing I was thinking about in order for a Dobe to be labeled a Champion should they be required to have some kind of working title before they could become eligible to be a AKC Champion since they are working dogs. I know some are I was just wondering what others thought about that idea?

That's sort of a loaded questions. Let's reverse that for a second... should a conformation title (correct structure) be required before a dog can be eligible to be an FCI Champion since proper structure has alot to do with workability.
If structure isn't correct, can't it actually hinder a dog in the "working" field?

[Big Dogs]

I didn't mean for it to be a loaded question but yes you are correct panama I was thinking more along the lines of Obedience titles or a Sch title or something that shows the dog also has they ability to work. I know they have the structure but when you can also show that the dog is also well rounded with they ability to work do you think it would also add more depth to the title?

[RKCM]

BD there are many dogs that are AKC Champions that have titles in obedience and other venues. Not required but it is the premise that if a dog has correct structure and temperament as decribed in the standard it can work. Training determines the limits on most of these dogs and is what most do whether in competition or in everyday life.

What is most important is the dog is put in the venue that the dog can do well in and that the owners enjoy that. Finding that is every owners job and duty to their dog. Working with your own dog is more about doing it than titles.

An AKC Championship is a venue that confirms the structure of that dog by many judges in a line up of a large number of dogs. It is what breeders do to compare and improve their lines. It shows who has what and is very enlightening. Some owners and breeders become very kennel blind to their own dogs and this confirms the ability to work.

[Big Dogs]

RK I understand all of your points and I know they are not required and maybe I'm not conveying my point properly which is should these dogs be able to work to truly be called champions? What brought this to mind was I started to work with a malinois who is beautiful moves well and is from very good bloodlines but this dog will never be able to do the job it was intended for properly it just doesn't have the mind set to do it. I would have to disagree with a dog having great structure and confirming the ability to work. Having great structure is very important and allows them to have the ability to work but that is only part of the equation you also have to have the correct mind set and I have seen one with out they other. Again I'm not a judge but when I hear Champion it may mean different things to different people to me it means a Doberman that not only is correct in structure and movement and temperament but is also a proven working dog again it can be any working dog title or performance title. Again this is just a thought and I'am strictly looking at it from a trainer stand point but I think it makes sense to me anyway. Just a thought? By the way I think it is true for labs,shepards,pointer and any other breed that was bread for a job so I'm not just limiting it to Dobes.

[Panama]

I'm not knocking any performance title, so please don't take this wrong.

I think it's great that people get out and do something with their dog(s), whether it be conformation, bite work, obedience, Rally, agility... or even flyball... however, just because a dog excels in one area (or even a few areas) doesn't mean it will in all of the others.

There are different venues and different events for a reason. Finding what a dog excels in (as RKCM stated) is the key.

So, I guess I would answer your question with a no. JMO

[Big Dogs]

No Problem it was just a thought.

[RKCM]

I'm not knocking any performance title, so please don't take this wrong.

I think it's great that people get out and do something with their dog(s), whether it be conformation, bite work, obedience, Rally, agility... or even flyball... however, just because a dog excels in one area (or even a few areas) doesn't mean it will in all of the others.

There are different venues and different events for a reason. Finding what a dog excels in (as RKCM stated) is the key.

So, I guess I would answer your question with a no. JMO


And I'd say no too. Many of these venue is training, somewhat temperament but most dobermans are trainable, you can not train structure. All titles I personal respect and think they show that the owners do something with the dog. Like others have said, not all titles are the same and take a different skill or more perfect structure. That's a great thing to me that people show their dogs and do something with them. But it does not equal breeding quality to me. Temperament is not that hard to evaluate, nor is structure but the problem with owners evaluating their own dog is a long one, kennel blindness, and this is why we have confirm their structure in the ring. In the ring temperament is evaluted to the degree it can be in a few minutes but the great breeders their dogs. Just my thoughts here. And remember too that even the worst of temperaments can be trained, few don't improve with enough time and effort.

[nterry]

I agree that even mutts can be trained to do some of these jobs but the point is that the owner is giving the dog something worthwhile to do. They are working jobs and I have seen owners train those dogs in some amazing ways. They work for us anyway if you are a responsible owner. Titles for working dog are required by some countries, others it is a choice.

The AKC in the states has one of the best shows to determine the correct structure. With structure, training is just patience and time for those made correctly to work. People are the ones that destroy good dogs or train them in a way that does not allow their full potential. Structure is constant and it can't be altered. Some dogs should not reproduce. Structure is a view into the genetics of the dog. Working maybe in part genetics but much more learned behavior and training.

[Big Dogs]

Well as I said it was just a thought I would have to disagree with structure being a constant all you have to do is look at Dobes of 20 or 30 years ago and present day to see structure has changed I believe some for the good and some for the bad but the proof is in the photos. I also differ on the ability to work being more of a learned behavior, genetics provide the foundation for not only structure but also for the dog mentally to excel in certain areas trainers only help develop those areas the dog has to have for lack of a better way of putting it the will and internal drive to excel which is part of those genetics. Sorry for straying off course.

[Panama]

Well as I said it was just a thought I would have to disagree with structure being a constant all you have to do is look at Dobes of 20 or 30 years ago and present day to see structure has changed I believe some for the good and some for the bad but the proof is in the photos. I also differ on the ability to work being more of a learned behavior, genetics provide the foundation for not only structure but also for the dog mentally to excel in certain areas trainers only help develop those areas the dog has to have for lack of a better way of putting it the will and internal drive to excel which is part of those genetics. Sorry for straying off course.

I think what nterry meant about "structure is constant" (and how I read it) is, you can't train proper structure, they either have it or they don't.

[Big Dogs]

I'f thats what he meant than I would agree with that.

[pennypup]

To the OP: In my personal opinion (which differs from many I'm sure) the dogs of today are nothing like the dogs of yesteryear. Most show dogs wouldn't be able to perform the task they were bred for.

The main reason I believe this, is because of (here it comes, I'm about the be shot) confirmation shows. Yes, you read that right. =O

Many people who love showing their dog focus on achieving perfect structure. And before I'm shot dead while I sleep, I will concede, yes almost all health test their dogs. The problem arises that most people breed to "better the breed" yet what constitutes "better?" Many people's ideas of what is better will not be the same as many others.

Some believe better means healthier. Some believe better means better structure. Some believe better means better performance. Some believe better means better temperament. Some believe all the above, or some combination, while others believe none of it and believe something else.

See where I'm going with this?

Back in the days of yore (lol) no one thought twice of breeding some street mongrel into their lines for the dog to perform it's duties better. No one knows the exact ratio of breeds in the doberman because Louis Dobermann took whatever dog he liked best (who knows what his reasonings were) and bred it to his dogs. Sure, the dogs may have not been deemed "pretty" but they darn well did their job or else he would have excluded them from his lines. Otto Goeller added in the Manchester Terrier which gave the doberman more of the sleek look we have today.

I really envy people of the late 1800's and early 1900's. They could do as they pleased with breeds. "Oh this dog needs less height? Lets breed this bitch with the dog across the way who is shorter." for example.
Eventually the Kennel Clubs created the breed standards and wouldn't allow your dog to be registered unless bred from the pool of individuals who already represented that breed. I think this is where pedigree dogs may have gone wrong. This is where many health issues arise, but that's for another discussion.

So, as to why the dogs of today look nothing like the dogs from the 50's - 70's is because of what is deemed "pretty" has changed. (Take the clothing for example. I doubt many wouldn't be caught dead in bellbottoms and platform boots now.)
Frankly, many of the North American lined doberman are so slender and sleek, they look more like they were bred for racing than for protection.

Does it mean they're less likely to perform their duties? Probably not, but it may make them less likely to perform them as well as a doberman of the past.

[Big Dogs]

Very interesting view I have never thought about looking at it that way.

[pennypup]

No, breeders that I consider ethical won't breed a mongrel with their doberman and no they don't use Z or albino dogs in their breeding program.

Was what Louis Dobermann did ethical in your point of view then? After all, the fountation stock of the doberman were mongrels.

I always love it when people that have been to a few small shows say all N american dogs lack bone. What is up with that? LOL

Why must you assume I've only "been to a few small shows?" I never said ALL NA doberman lack bone. But they are definately startign to look more like Bambi than rambo don't you think? LOL

The dogs are better. If you want a mutt to work, they are in every pound in American, working on trying to live. No most breeders stay with trying to stick to the standard.

Thats exactly my point. The standard keeps changing. The thing that doesn't change however, is the gene pool form which to pluck. Therefore if a few judges suddenly start awarding top prizes to a certain dog, (say with a bit more of a roach back like the GSD) that one top dog will suddenly be in demand. Everyone from here to Timbucktoo will want one of his decendants. Then they will breed more severly roach backed dogs. And so on and so forth...

And let's not go to healthier unless you can back it up with dogs, facts and proof.

I didn't get into the healthier aspect of it much, but do you honestly think adding in the slightest bit of new blood will do more harm than good?

Mine in purple.

[pennypup]

By the way, last I studied genetics, a short dog bred to a tall dog equals puppies that are either too tall or too short. That's why you use dogs that are in standard with BONE! LOL

What do you mean by too tall or too short? O_o

[pennypup]

Oh Debi, don't get so bent, don't you know that everyone would have such a better breed if they went back to where they were in Germany where you couldn't touch them unless you wanted scars. LOL> And yes, health testing shouldn't be done because it only tells the health of the dog being bred and not exact. And the show dogs don't weigh 130 lbs with rolling fat rolls and that's lack of bone? Not even. LOL.

Sarcasim was not necessary was it? It really doesn't bode well when all you can do is result to nastiness to get your point across.

I have only one question. ONE! What shows have you been to that the dogs lacked bone?

Every show I have been to, the dogs all looked like they were bred to look more like deer than doberman. Do I want a 130lbs dog? Of course not! But some of these dogs had no depth of cheast, they has snipey muzzles or a down face with too little stop. They had a tail set that was too low or too high yet they place. They deviate from the all mighty standard, yet they will be listed as a champion before long and pass on their genes to the next generation. And who knows, maybe in 10 years deer like doberman will be the new standard?

All dobermans should have bone but it does not mean that they should not be as close to the standard as possible. The standard is the structure that can work, any deviation makes the dog a little less able to do the work it is bred for.

This may be a doberman forum, but what about your show GSD? Do you honestly think they can perform the duties they were bred for with that awful roach back? That's now the standard yet I'm sure you'd be hard pressed to find a GSD who could heard sheep with the best of them.

I reviewed this posters site and I see that you are against breeding any pure breed dogs. Really? Why on earth do you make that assumption?! I own a purebred dog. If I am wrong about that, just appeared like that since the article posted on PETA's site is the same. It could be that the poster just doesn't want anyone to breed dogs and wants them to all run lose and do away with breeds. Well, not in Texas and not in the USA, not yet anyway.

I really want to know where on my site it says I'm against breeding purebred dogs. What article on PeTA's website? You've completely lost me on that one... maybe this comment wasn't directed towards me. My website is a blog about dogs and my doberman whom I love dearly. I have NEVER agreed with anything PeTA has put out there just as an f.y.i.


And my hat is off to all those wonderful breeders that health test and show their dogs! Keeping the structure so that the dog is capable, healthier and maybe even off the dangerous dog list. Had it stayed the same, we would of been banned in Canada and in the south.

I am so happy for everyone who health tests their dogs. This I can agree with you on. There is nothing more important to me than the health of my dog.
And you've proven my point about what people consider bettering the breed. You obviously love the fact the temperament of the doberman of today is much more docile of the one of a century ago. However, maybe someone else thinks this is a great disadvantage to the breed.

We can't go back and I'm thankful for that! I love my dobermans just the way they are with their big bone, their long ears, and their ability to run and catch whoever is a threat. They aren't mutts and mutts aren't needed to save the breed. That's my opinion, you darn tootin it is. LOL

I love my dobe too, just the way he is. He may be too tall, and have too low of a tail set for the show scene but he's perfect in my eyes.

I'm really want to write more, but sleep is a calling.

[Panama]

No one is arguing the the GSD's standard! Yes, there have been changes to several breed standards.

If the Doberman breed (which is what this forum is about) had the temperament that it was bred for initially, the breed would be close to extinction today. They would've been banned. Breeding would have more then likely been restricted to Military and/or Police breeding and ownership, and none of us would have had the privilege of owning a Dobe.

I for one am grateful the temperament has been toned down from days of old.

As for poor structure... look at the breeding, if either counterpart is of poor quality (and shouldn't be bred to begin with), yep, you're more then likely going to get "bambi" in there somewhere! Of course, if the stud dog is "30-31in at the withers" (which I might add is within standard for a male GREAT DANE), yep, your going to get some giraffes, that will more then likely have spindley legs, either a sway or roach back and low tail set. HOWEVER, those that cherish the breed and have serious concerns for or about the breed are not breeding those types of dogs.

Go to any pet classified site, and I guarantee there are stud dogs listed that aren't even old enough for health testing, or are old enough and have had no health testing what so ever (some of them haven't even heard of vWD (the simplest test), yet they're breeding these dogs) and they are way out of standard. Look around and see how many "Z" Factored or Albino pups are being produced.. those around here, that I've gotten to know and hear their views on such breeding... sorry, you're not going to find that around here!

The goal should be BALANCE. Health, Structure & Temperament should all be considered and vital elements.

[Big Dogs]

WoW: After that skirmish anyone who was thinking about posting an opinion will be thinking twice. I will say this Dobes through the years have changed both physically and mentally and in temperament some for the good and some for the bad ( Physical changes are in the pictures) I keep hearing that you have to go to a BIG show to see or understand what a good example of what a Dobermans is supposed to be. Do these dogs not compete in smaller shows to begin with? I will say this if you think you can only find good or great examples of Dobes in a show ring you are seriously miss guided. There are fine examples of dogs that do not compete in show rings out there, a GREAT DOG is a GREAT DOG show ring or not. Confirmation is a large piece of the puzzle that makes a great dog but it is only part of what makes a great dog with out temperament, drive the mental ability, health and that inner spirit that sets them apart from the rest you just have a nice dog to look at. A great dog has all of those qualities and more! This post was about Dogs of the past and present and how they have changed. I keep hearing about the Standards well in the brief time a judge examines and view's a dog in a ring he makes the best educated decision he can make as to the dog's conformation and appearance to those standards but that is only part of the standard he can judge, he can not fully judge the dogs true temperament nor can he judge if the dog is fearless loyal or obedient all of which are part of the Standard also, they maybe there and they may not be there all of which would be a determining factor in truly meeting the standard as written. So the point here is there are many things that make up the standard and in my opinion it is a term that is thrown quiet a bit.

[Panama]

A dog that is not approachable for exam in the ring does not have the proper temperament. Judges do not approach in a threatening manner, therefore the dog should not show any aggression.

A dog that pulls away from a judge, tries to hide behind the handler during exam would show fear. Again, not proper temperament.

A dog that will not stand or hold still for exam or will not gait would give the impression the dog is not obedient (personally I think that is all in the manner the dog was trained or rather not trained).

So yes, I do think an experienced judge familiar with the breed they are judging can select the dog, out of what is being presented that moment, that is closest to the standard.

[RKCM]

A dog that is not approachable for exam in the ring does not have the proper temperament. Judges do not approach in a threatening manner, therefore the dog should not show any aggression.

A dog that pulls away from a judge, tries to hide behind the handler during exam would show fear. Again, not proper temperament.

A dog that will not stand or hold still for exam or will not gait would give the impression the dog is not obedient (personally I think that is all in the manner the dog was trained or rather not trained).

So yes, I do think an experienced judge familiar with the breed they are judging can select the dog, out of what is being presented that moment, that is closest to the standard.

Or one that shows in body posture it is unsure of himself. Or a dog that never uses his ears, tucks the tail, growls at the judge. I think that it is very much something that an experienced breed expert can evaluate to some degree.

Big Dog, the smaller shows do not usually have the top dogs showing and some no Champions. People that go to these local shows are not seeing the breed and the best. Remember too that it takes majors with about 20-30 or more dogs in one sex to make an AKC Champion. These smaller shows are a point if that, not even close to what you'd see in majors shows and might be the reason some are not seeing how outstanding the doberman ring really is today. It is the ring where the most Best N Show and group winners come from. It is absolutely breathtaking to see the best of our dogs in the ring.

While there maybe some dogs that are nice that aren't shown. I haven't seen too many that aren't shown that are breeding quality in structure. Without structure to me they aren't great working dogs or show dogs and sometimes make good pets but like Panama posted, do nothing to improve our breed. This is about at least trying to do that.

And NO way I'd want one of those vicious untouchable dogs from Germany back in the day. We kinna enjoy our dogs being with us to protect, love, and catch a ball every once in a while. LOL While not taking our hand. LOL

But I see the point BD.

[nterry]

Having been to most of the top shows in North American, I can confirm that Penny is not correct. While there are always a few dogs that are shown that are not of correct bone. I personally don't see those dogs winning in the ring in the CKC or AKC. The breed has improved over the years. DCM has been there since the beginning and it has remained. DCM was noted in the original dogs and many breeders has used selective breeding to put together dogs that have more longivity. While no dogs are exempt from the genes that were passed down, we have many that live to 10, 11, 12, and older. Larger dogs do not live as long as small dogs, that's just part of it.

I recently read where larger dogs have a gene that is not common in smaller dogs. Now don't get me wrong. I want a doberman with bone, but not a GIANT. Bigger has more health risks and certainly is not the dog that has the agility to work and stay on that task to ensure the job is done.

Penny, we have been over the fact that there is a wide variety of dobermans in North American. Some are pure pets and others the top in the World. If you are saying that most show dogs lack correct bone in your area, maybe so, but not in the entire continent. No dog is perfect. No dog has it all but bone is part of what I will not omit.

In all due respect, I see your dog or the one on your posts has light eyes, very clearly a serious fault that can effect a working dog. Does that mean that all the dogs in Canada have light eyes. I say not! The same applies to bone.

The dog owners of the past did not require the responsibility we have to today in laws and in showing the breed in a good light. Had they stayed the same or ever close to the temperament for protection on the streets, they would not have survived. They survived because breeders had the insight to know that a untouchable biting dog could not protect a family and was a risk of harm to their children and to the people that are not a threat. A good protector senses danger, reacts to that danger, and stays close to the owner so that it can protect. Nothing stays the same that is living and it is this breed, on this point, we all would be without a doberman had it remained.

[pennypup]

ANd what puppy mill in Canada gave you this information about shows? How many have you attended in our country or the USA? The bone on some of the dogs are wonderful. What shows did you attend? I think it is very easy to be critical of show people when you do not have a dog to show.

Puppymill? Sorry but I have to laugh at that. I can't remember the exact number of shows, but it's been quite a few. I've visited many over the years from when I was a wee thing to only a few years ago when I was looking for doberman breeders.

Without structure, level backs, good hips, and lay back of shoulder the dog can not move. Without the correct bite, they don't have enough teeth to make it hard. And without movement and a bite, you are going to work doing what. And without health testing is fine if you do not care to check the health of the dog being bred and want to make money off the backs of your dogs, because without showing and testing, it's pure profit.


Just to set things straight, I never said health testing was a bad thing. In fact, I think everyone should health test their dog, regardless of where they acquire it.

Give me those champions that are of correct size and you will have a dog that can work as a companion that protects that family with their life. I prefer the dog you can touch. Mr. Dobermann once said, if you can touch my dog you can take him home. Go figure.

Go to some of the big shows and don't judge from the the distance. I think you are missing something. The breed needs to improve, but it will not and can not go backwards. I am sure glad that can't happen/

I really find it amazing everyone is missinterperting what I've been saying. I'm not saying we should go back to the 1800's with the doberman. Nor am I say we should not continue to improve the breed.
What I was trying to get across is that for a long time, dog shows focused on the looks of a dog only. You could have a darn perfect dog acroding to the standard, but who's to say he'd make the perfect protection dog? Many breeders always say they're breeding to "better the breed" and I simply am asking, what does that really mean? The doberman was bred as a protection dog. Perhaps by breeding for a better temperament, we've actually hindered the dog's abilities to protect. Just sayin' is all.

Vwoofe, I finally found a post that I can agree with. You got this right. LOL.

Sorry for the rant, but I get sick of people that don't show, don't breed, and don't go to shows make statements about every dog in north American, that's just crap. Your opinion but at least let us try to make statements that we have facts and not an attitude that we have been to enough shows to judge the whole fricking continent, that's a little much.

I'm going back to bed!



I wasn't judging the "whole fricken continent" just so we're clear. Just the dog's I've seen with my own eyes.

[pennypup]

WoW: After that skirmish anyone who was thinking about posting an opinion will be thinking twice. I will say this Dobes through the years have changed both physically and mentally and in temperament some for the good and some for the bad ( Physical changes are in the pictures) I keep hearing that you have to go to a BIG show to see or understand what a good example of what a Dobermans is supposed to be. Do these dogs not compete in smaller shows to begin with? I will say this if you think you can only find good or great examples of Dobes in a show ring you are seriously miss guided. There are fine examples of dogs that do not compete in show rings out there, a GREAT DOG is a GREAT DOG show ring or not. Confirmation is a large piece of the puzzle that makes a great dog but it is only part of what makes a great dog with out temperament, drive the mental ability, health and that inner spirit that sets them apart from the rest you just have a nice dog to look at. A great dog has all of those qualities and more! This post was about Dogs of the past and present and how they have changed. I keep hearing about the Standards well in the brief time a judge examines and view's a dog in a ring he makes the best educated decision he can make as to the dog's conformation and appearance to those standards but that is only part of the standard he can judge, he can not fully judge the dogs true temperament nor can he judge if the dog is fearless loyal or obedient all of which are part of the Standard also, they maybe there and they may not be there all of which would be a determining factor in truly meeting the standard as written. So the point here is there are many things that make up the standard and in my opinion it is a term that is thrown quiet a bit.

Thank-you for that Big Dogs. This is honestly why I do not like forums. They remind me very much of a high school cliqué. If you don't conform to the majority rules, people will be rude and disrespectful to you until you leave. =/

And I agree with pretty much everything you said.

[pennypup]

No one is arguing the the GSD's standard! Yes, there have been changes to several breed standards.

If the Doberman breed (which is what this forum is about) had the temperament that it was bred for initially, the breed would be close to extinction today. They would've been banned. Breeding would have more then likely been restricted to Military and/or Police breeding and ownership, and none of us would have had the privilege of owning a Dobe.

I for one am grateful the temperament has been toned down from days of old.

I am too as I love my goofy boy. He's such a sweetheart and I agree, this is one trait I very much believe was for the better. However, someone else may think this is a drawback.

As for poor structure... look at the breeding, if either counterpart is of poor quality (and shouldn't be bred to begin with), yep, you're more then likely going to get "bambi" in there somewhere! Of course, if the stud dog is "30-31in at the withers" (which I might add is within standard for a male GREAT DANE), yep, your going to get some giraffes, that will more then likely have spindley legs, either a sway or roach back and low tail set. HOWEVER, those that cherish the breed and have serious concerns for or about the breed are not breeding those types of dogs.

Yet, I see maybe breeders which are supposed to be "ethical" yet they breed a dog who has missing teeth, or one who is vWD affected.( And yes, I know this condition is not as deadly as it's made out to be, but does that mean we shouldn't attempt to remove it from the lines?) Does that make them just as guilty as someone who breeds oversized dobes?

Go to any pet classified site, and I guarantee there are stud dogs listed that aren't even old enough for health testing, or are old enough and have had no health testing what so ever (some of them haven't even heard of vWD (the simplest test), yet they're breeding these dogs) and they are way out of standard. Look around and see how many "Z" Factored or Albino pups are being produced.. those around here, that I've gotten to know and hear their views on such breeding... sorry, you're not going to find that around here!

The goal should be BALANCE. Health, Structure & Temperament should all be considered and vital elements.



Yes, I agree. The thing is, confirmation shows don't focus on health. A dog could fit the standard to a T on the outside and have the "perfect" temperament, but on the inside could be a whole different bag o' worms.

[Panama]

So, using a quality dog (or bitch) that is vWD Affected is unethical? If they were bred to a Clear (where no Affected pups would be produced), would that be unethical?

Reducing the #'s of Affected pups being produced and over a few generations of selective breeding it can be bred out of a line.

[RKCM]

Yes, I agree. The thing is, confirmation shows don't focus on health. A dog could fit the standard to a T on the outside and have the "perfect" temperament, but on the inside could be a whole different bag o' worms.

Few owners will spend the money it takes to show a dog that is unhealthy. These show people support research, promote it, and do most of the testing that will result in answers in the future. There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with showing your dog. It Proves that on that day in the opinion of that judge your dog had correct structure and was deserving. All dogs have faults and never seen a dog that is perfect, but seen a few that in my opinion was pretty close. Visit the National someday Penny and I think you will have a whole new view. Oh there maybe a few that were not what I'd want in structure, but like the shows in all countries, there are a few that are breath taking. Not meaning you because you don't show your dog, but we all think our dogs are the best and this is why we have the AKC judges to give us the opinion. And it is to confirm breeding quality but I think show people do more than just show. Many working titles, many performance, many service dogs, therapy dogs that are champions.

The breed needs to be improved in longivity in health but you can not do that by breeding in dogs with poor structure or vicious temperament. The standard disallows vicious dogs and in the beginning the breed was untouchable. A very undesireable trait today and by the standard. And not what I'd trust with my family had they remained the same.

Pam is right on Vwd. Personally using an affected dogs that has longivity to produce puppies that are clear is smart. Two dogs on Dobequest, only two claimed to have died of Vwd. It is just not a fault that is killing our dogs. It is a tactic that is used by some to sell dogs. It is not fully health testing and important, but not the whole story of health. Way down on this of what are seriously ending death early.

[Big Dogs]

Well here is my feeling and first and foremost I personally have seen dogs that were never shown that met the standard I'm not saying they would have been Champions in the show ring, but what I'am saying is they met the standard in every way given. I know what there temperament was I know about there loyalty there alertness there structure and obedience because I worked with them for extended periods of time. No one in this world can evaluate a dogs true temperament in a fifteen second exam which is what the judge has to base there opinion on as they examine the eyes face and teeth. As far as saying that a dog is obedient because they stand there and they can be led around the ring I think that is kind of a far stretch to call that a judge in true obedience. I'm not saying that the dogs can not follow other commands but the judge isn't even considering that as obedience he is looking at the way the dog moves for confirmation and movement not obedience which is why they have them going and coming from him and around him. I do believe breeders have done well in improving the breed in many areas especially trying to improve the health and longevity and temperament there are areas in structure that I personally do not care for but that is me. The show ring is a place where a dog is judged for there structure and movement many if not all of the other standards can not be judged in the time given or the venue.

[Panama]

Just as a dog that has an Obedience title or carries a ScH title (of whatever level) does not mean the dog is Conformationally correct at all. Nor does it mean the dogs are healthier then those shown in Conformation.

Obedience and or ScH alone doesn't mean a dog is correctly put together. Because a dog has the heart & will doesn't make them conformationally correct.

Yes, it would be nice to see Working (Guardian) breeds excel in ALL events and venues, I'm sure there are many that can title in the breed ring, do Obedience/Agility or even ScH, but for the most part, they choose one or maybe even two events their dog(s) excel at.

I've seen Border Collies and Australian Shepherds that go into the breed ring, do Obedience and Agility (and 1 Aussie that does frisbee events) and still work on the family farm.

[Big Dogs]

I agree and have never said any dog was healthier than another and also agree that a dog that does any of the working titles does not automatically mean it is going to be correct in confirmation or any of they other parts of the standards. I just think people throw around meeting the standard and Champion together as if they are one and my point is dogs in the show ring are and can only be judged on confirmation and movement there is not enough time to evaluate the rest of the standard and I'am not saying they may or may not be able to meet the rest of it I'am saying people throw the two terms together and it just isn't correct. I personally think it should read confirmation champion I'm sure many others would disagree and that's okay but I do not see where I'm stating anything that is in correct. This isn't singling out show dogs or field champions or working dogs with titles it is about how loosely the term meeting the standards is thrown around there are many parts to meeting the standards. At least how I read it from the AKC.

[Panama]

Isn't the "CH" at the beginning of a dog's name designated for Conformation Champion? I believe all other titles go on the back end of the dog's name.

[RKCM]

You are right, Pam. And so is BD, you can't evaluate everything in temperament in the time in the ring. BUT you can determine if the dog is vicious, won't allow you to go over them or shys away. That you can tell. You can see if the dog uses his ears, is alert, if the tail is up and the dog is alert. So those things are easy to determine by watching the dog.

[Big Dogs]

What?........ Maybe it is me but I'm not following you. No one said they only wanted a dog they could only touch and my comment was you can not determine a true dogs temperament in a 15 second exam, it really has nothing to do about there working temperament or any other phase of there temperament we are talking about evaluating. We train dogs here on a fairly regular basis that have problems at the vet with being examined and we do it through de-sensitizing. I agree that temperament in Dobes has improved through the years as has many other aspects and as you said some for the good and some for the bad. You can work a dog that can not be touched you train them that it is okay to be touched and trusted does this take time yes but fortunately we have been done fairly well in this area. Most if not all dogs that do not want to be touched have trust/fear issues not wanting to be touched is not natural behavior in a domesticated dog that has had contact with humans that were not abusive. All dogs know how to bite and will as for teaching a dog to bite I'm not sure what you mean by that but teaching a dog to do it in a manner that you can control I can insure you that it takes a very long time and countless hours to achieve this. As for teaching them not to bite, all puppies bite when they are young because that is instinctive and that is how they examine the world but with any kind of interaction they are over that in no time at all if they have human interaction. Again dogs do not naturally want to bite humans so training them not to is not so hard. So maybe I'm just not following you correctly and if I read it incorrectly forget this post.

[RKCM]

I recently ask a friend of mine that does PP work and trains dog for the US Military. She is actually doing a therapy dog for the veterans now but she does PP work at times, evaluates etc. She told me that it takes 5 minutes or less to teach any dog to bite and 8-12 months to teach them on command. I wondered if this is the average time of training or is it less in your opinion.

Bites, none of us want the dogs of the past that you can't touch. LOL

[Big Dogs]

All dogs have the potential to bite, not sure what she meant about 5min to bite yes I can get most dogs to bite a pad or sleeve but that doesn't mean they will hold on or release if commanded to. So in retrospect I would have to agree with getting a dog to bite in that time if it is a tug or something similar and would also have to agree with the training time maybe a little shorter depending on the dog.

[RKCM]

All dogs have the potential to bite, not sure what she meant about 5min to bite yes I can get most dogs to bite a pad or sleeve but that doesn't mean they will hold on or release if commanded to. So in retrospect I would have to agree with getting a dog to bite in that time if it is a tug or something similar and would also have to agree with the training time maybe a little shorter depending on the dog.

What she told me is that she can get any dog to bite in about 5 minutes. She is speaking of the dogs she trained for PP work. I asked her about trainers that were not so ethical in PP work and she said that if a trainer said that they could complete train a dog in a month or so, RUN! She said minium on the very best dogs it took 6 months and many 8-12 months. She said that most dogs can be trained for PP work if they have the right trainer. She doesn't work with dobermans that much and more Treverns. Didn't spell that right. Most are dogs that are drug dogs for the US government.

[Big Dogs]

I would have to agree with all of that RK except the most dogs can be trained for PP part at least the way we train. Maybe more of them at the lower level but I maybe overly picky when it comes to choosing but I wan't them all perfect. Dobes take longer they just develop at a slower pace and I do not believe in pushing them through training no matter what the breed. I will say this when a Dobe does have it for lack of a better way of expressing it THEY HAVE IT you will not find a better dog, they understand why there doing it and constantly think about what they are doing. Choosing the right trainer is critical as she said it makes all the difference. Our policy is the dog sets the training pace and only I say when they are ready and no dog from our program will leave any of my training programs before I say it is written into the contract since I feel every dog is a reflection on me! Sometimes we have them longer than what the dog takes sometimes the owner is the hold up but the whole thing has to be wright before the dog goes.

[RKCM]

I would have to agree with all of that RK except the most dogs can be trained for PP part at least the way we train. Maybe more of them at the lower level but I maybe overly picky when it comes to choosing but I wan't them all perfect. Dobes take longer they just develop at a slower pace and I do not believe in pushing them through training no matter what the breed. I will say this when a Dobe does have it for lack of a better way of expressing it THEY HAVE IT you will not find a better dog, they understand why there doing it and constantly think about what they are doing. Choosing the right trainer is critical as she said it makes all the difference. Our policy is the dog sets the training pace and only I say when they are ready and no dog from our program will leave any of my training programs before I say it is written into the contract since I feel every dog is a reflection on me! Sometimes we have them longer than what the dog takes sometimes the owner is the hold up but the whole thing has to be wright before the dog goes.

Janet doesn't train for individuals but for the government. She only works one dog at a time, very successfully I have heard. She is retired and still does it when they have one for her. Right now she is training a dobe as a service dog for a disabled vet. She's an amazing lady to talk too. She doesn't use the internet and said I don't have time for it. LOL. Her bitch that Teresa showed at the National took her class 12-18 month. Nice lady and would like to visit with her more.

Sounds pretty much what Janet said, except she gave me a ball park of when the dog was normally ready to work. She did say that most any dog can be trained but it all depends on the time you want to invest. Her two dobermans saved her life by jumping through a plate glass window and releasing her from someone that had her by the neck. These were untrained at that time and the reason she decided to devote her time to training. She doesn't do it for individuals anymore, just the government and only one at a time now. It's a joy for her. Love chit chatting with her.

Sounds like BD that your method works for you. I would imagion that a time limit would depend on the dog but what is the average?

[Big Dogs]

RK average for a top level dog would be around the 9 to 10 months assuming he is obedience trained already we usually spend around 20 to 25 hours with the owner and the dog spread out over several weeks. The biggest problem for the owner is getting them to be comfortable giving commands in German we prefer to use it as it is not something most people speak in the U.S. there for eliminating any confusion. We have also trained in Dutch but German is what we usually use.

[RKCM]

Interesting. Why don't you just train using English commands? What benefit is it to do it in German etc.?

[Big Dogs]

Well there is a two fold reason for that. As is the case with most if not all law enforcement dogs they are also trained in a language usually German or Dutch so that if the would be attacker were to yell something to the dog such as no or sit or down while the dog is in pursuit or defending it could become confusing for the dog, likely no but there still is that very slight chance of it happening or even delaying the dog for an instant so that they can elude or attack in that split second of confusion. The other reason for us is tradition that is the way I was taught and was also taught the reason for it was as previously mentioned there are departments that use imported dogs that have already been trained in that countries language. We also offer it to the owners of dogs that we are obedience training. Surprisingly since we have been offering it there has been a steady increase of people wanting to do it.

[RKCM]

Thanks BigDog.

Beware of the German speaking criminal. LOL. That does make sense, just joking with you.

[nterry]

Many PP dogs are trained with a code because in Europe we have many people that speak the language and more than one.

Funny RKC, I enjoy your humor.

[RKCM]

Thanks Terry!