Title and cost clarification....

[Panama]

It seems many have the wrong idea about showing in the AKC venue.

Yes, it is possible to title a dog in 1 weekend, Sometimes, one weekend could be 5 or 6 shows. Are there no other venues that a dog can title in one weekend? Do you feel all UKC CH's or GrCH's are undeserving of their title?

Even if there is only a single breed entry, that DOES NOT mean automatic CH title. With no breed competition, they would still need 3 competition wins.

As far as UKC being "cheap".... that is a misconception.
To Pre-Enter a 4 show weekend it's usually $80 ($20/show)
Day of Show (DOS) if you enter all 4 shows $100 ($25/show)

Travel, lodging (whether it be hotel or RV site), food.. etc is just as expensive for a UKC exhibitor as it is for an Owner Handler in any other venue. If you are fortunate to have a show close enough you don't need to stay at a hotel... that's fantastic. I don't have that option.

[RKCM]

It seems many have the wrong idea about showing in the AKC venue.

Yes, it is possible to title a dog in 1 weekend, Sometimes, one weekend could be 5 or 6 shows. Are there no other venues that a dog can title in one weekend? Do you feel all UKC CH's or GrCH's are undeserving of their title?

Even if there is only a single breed entry, that DOES NOT mean automatic CH title. With no breed competition, they would still need 3 competition wins.

As far as UKC being "cheap".... that is a misconception.
To Pre-Enter a 4 show weekend it's usually $80 ($20/show)
Day of Show (DOS) if you enter all 4 shows $100 ($25/show)

Travel, lodging (whether it be hotel or RV site), food.. etc is just as expensive for a UKC exhibitor as it is for an Owner Handler in any other venue. If you are fortunate to have a show close enough you don't need to stay at a hotel... that's fantastic. I don't have that option.

Here is my opinion, finishing a dog in 5 or 6 shows is rare because of the large number needed for majors. This breed is the most competitive at the shows in most areas. Dagger finished in about 10-12 shows and that was considered fast. It is very tough competition in Texas, Okla, Tenn. and you have to travel to find majors.

I think the UKC is a valid venue too. They have many great dogs that show in the UKC and I know a few personally. Nothing bad to say about their champions except that I have seen pictures of a few that in my opinion clearly lack merited. While the AKC may have dogs that finished that might not be what I like, but never seen any in 50 years that were so lacking in basic structure. That bothered me and was shocking. I know some of you know I have good friends that show in the UKC with what I consider great dogs and I think those that play are put out by the UKC judges not withholding ribbons. To me that's what is wrong with their system. Having said that, know this is the few but to me isn't good when those people use that as a justification to breed and presenting the dog as a show dog when it is lacking. If that makes sense. Again no offense to most of the dogs. And some will say well the AKC champion should of finished, but all dobermans should have a decent topline and some basic things to finish. I understand the UKC is backing judges that are now withholding ribbons more often. That's a good thing.

With the point schedule like it is in the UKC, it makes making a champion faster and cheaper than what is required in the AKC. it does take some cash to do it right. Specialing a dog for 3 years could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, something I can't do. Finishing them is in reach.

Hope I didn't offend, just discussing opinions here. I think something needs to be done to ensure all champions get their do...AKC and UKC. That isn't the case.

[RKCM]

Eukanuba costs 150 to enter for the day, the garden is the same. Most of Dagger's entries were 30-35 a show. If I remember right.

[Panama]

Ok, your entries were $10 per show more... however, you had a handler, that you say saves on hotel, travel, and all the other expenses of being away from home, plus not having to take time off work. If a handler takes 4 dogs, you're only paying what, 1/4 of all travel, lodging... etc.. so, sounds sort of balanced cost wise!

Yes, Judges need to feel confident if they decide to withhold placement, not worry whether they will get another assignment from the club or not, and by all means, the UKC needs to back their judges decisions... after all, that is what we pay for, right?!!

Other then the friendly environment and all of the exhibitors encouraging, helping and rooting for one another I think the numerous exhibitors that show in other venues that are coming over to UKC are presenting quality dogs to the judges, and being heard when they see that some judges are putting up dogs with lower quality structure. JMO

[RKCM]

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Articles/Conformation10112292008

What I've heard say many times in withholding ribbons, the decision is do they conform to the standard and are the good enough to win. In my view, if they aren't, you actually do the exhibitor a favor by withholding ribbons. Looking at what is good enough, not what is bad. Good article, but a little off topic, sorry.

AKC
Well, I think what makes me think the costs are very different is that a doberman seldom finishes in a few shows, or a few months. It is finding majors, going to the largest shows that cost. When entries are down, taking one point at a time is a slow process and if you win every show, that's 9 shows if you win them all. I am assuming it takes less shows to finish a dog in the UKC and is common. Dagger most likely cost the same but he finished fast. Many show their dog too early. He was 5 and gave him the advantage of maturity and he was trained to show and liked it, makes a difference too.


UKC
Looking at Tulsa, it seems that they are having 4 shows and you could finish several dogs in one weekend. Correct this if I"m wrong. And I have several friends that have said that there are enough local shows to avoid traveling to any great degree. One dog in competition of your breed or in the group, I am guessing you could finish a dog in 3 shows.......you'll have a very hard time finding a dog that wins 3 majors in a row because there will be such a option in selection, dogs of equal quality, and choices make it much harder to win over 20or 30 dogs vs 1. I think it costs more but an no expert on the UKC.

Neither are cheap. LOL

[Panama]

I thoroughly agree that dogs obviously lacking in merit should not be put up, even if they are the only breed entry.

I would guess that link goes to Kathy's Conf 101. I've read all her articles, and all are very helpful and informative. She gives a lot of insight from a Judge's standpoint.

As for "that's good enough"... ugh... I tell those that work under me, 'if you turn and look at your work and think 'oh, that's good enough'... WRONG, redo it'.

Withholding ribbons doesn't only do the exhibitor a favor, it does the breed a favor. Which leads me to why I said there needs to be more shows. Getting more dogs in the ring for the judge to be able see correct (or a more correct) structure.

If a UKC Judge were to withhold placement to a single breed entry, I would almost guarantee if the exhibitor asked that judge why (which I'm sure they would), he/she would gladly explain why rather then just dismissing them and moving on.

Again, UKC is not the only venue a dog can earn a title in 1 weekend! And if you have shows that are fairly close by, by all means, join and let those judges see what we feel are worthy dogs! Don't just bash it or complain about it... help make the changes!

[Panama]

I don't post pictures of other people's dogs without their permission!

[Panama]

I was referring to going to "A" show. I am fully aware that it does take longer to finish in the AKC. Having to go to more shows, naturally it would be more costly. The cost of a weekend exhibiting one's own dog, regardless of venue, is going to to cost about the same across the board.

[RKCM]

Well that is true of class dogs, but not cheaper for the ones already finished. The extra fees can go into the thousands. There can be extra charges for the breed, group, then, placements. Difference in hundreds seems to me.

And for me, with local UKC shows that could possible finish my dog I am not so sure the making of a champion is cheaper or even the same, just depends on the handler, the location, etc. Most friends tell me it is less expensive.

Maybe someone on the forum has both and can tell you facts. I've only shown in the AKC in conformation. The obedience trials are very much cheaper because there are many locally and if the dog is ready it gets it do, not selecting the best like in conformation.

[Panama]

With UKC of course we don't have the extra cost of BOB or Group Placements, Pro (paid) Handlers aren't allowed!

[RKCM]

With UKC of course we don't have the extra cost of BOB or Group Placements, Pro (paid) Handlers aren't allowed!

But are there pro handlers that show their own dogs or coown dogs and show in the UKC? ? What is considered a pro handler?


I would think so since most of the handler in dobermans, are breeders too. Do you see what you call pro handers showing dogs in the UKC? And can't they coown the dog and show it? Just saying. Although, the all breed handlers that carry lots of dogs would not go to that extreme, I'm not so sure the breeders wouldn't. Many show breeders coown the dogs so either owner could show?

[RKCM]

With UKC of course we don't have the extra cost of BOB or Group Placements, Pro (paid) Handlers aren't allowed!

But are there pro handlers that show their own dogs or coown dogs and show in the UKC? ? What is considered a pro handler?


I would think so since most of the handler in dobermans, are breeders too. Do you see what you call pro handers showing dogs in the UKC? And can't they coown the dog and show it? Just saying. Although, the all breed handlers that carry lots of dogs would not go to that extreme, I'm not so sure the breeders wouldn't. Many show breeders coown the dogs so either owner could show? And many of those show breeders also handle for a fee so does that necessarily make them a pro. Not sure I understand the post, slow this AM

[Panama]

UKC defines a Professional Handler as:
a person who exhibits dogs for compensation.
This category includes any person who accepts any pay, gift, or remuneration of any
sort in return for exhibiting a dog.

a. Remuneration. Remuneration includes,
but is not limited to:
i. Payment for exhibiting a dog in a UKC
licensed event, or any other organization;
ii. Reimbursement for lodging, mileage, travel,
meals, other travel expenses, or any other
expenses incurred at or traveling to or from a
UKC licensed event.
iii. Payment of entry fees by another exhibitor
for dogs owned by the professional handler in
return for handling services.

[Panama]

Persons allowed to handle dogs in UKC conformation events. The following
categories of handlers are allowed:

a. Owner or co-owner. The owner or coowner
of a UKC Registered dog may enter and
exhibit his/her own dog in UKC events. In addition,
the following immediate family members of
an owner or co-owner may enter and exhibit the
dog: spouse, parent, step-parent, child, stepchild,
brother or sister, provided that they are
not a professional handler.

b. Breeder. The breeder of a UKC Registered
dog may enter and exhibit that dog in UKC
events, even if the breeder is not an owner or coowner
of that dog, provided that the breeder handler
is not a professional handler. The following immediate
family members of a breeder may also enter and
exhibit that dog: spouse, parent, step-parent,
child, step-child, brother or sister.

c. Designated handler. Any individual who
has been given permission to do so by a registered
owner or co-owner of a UKC Registered
dog may enter and exhibit that dog in UKC
events, provided that the designated handler is
not a professional handler.

[Panama]

How co-owners would share expenses, I don't know. My husband and I are the only owner/co-owners of our dogs, so I don't know how that would play out. Very good question, and I will try to get an answer for it.

[Panama]

Here is the scenario & question I presented:

A question has come up that I am uncertain about.
I know Pro Handlers aren't allowed and if a designated handler accepts monetary compensation, gifts, favors, they too are classified as a pro-handler.

Would co-owners sharing expenses fall in this category in any way?

Say you have 3 co-owners... you take a dog out for a weekend of shows and it cost you $400 for the weekend (entries, travel & lodging), can the co-owners reimburse one another a portion of the expenses?

So far, this is the only reply I have gotten:

Those are owners sharing expenses....not friends taking the dog out for a weekend showing for you.

[Panama]

You can show dogs for other people. There is nothing stopping you from helping someone show a dog not owned by you. You just CANNOT accept any form of payment what-so-ever for doing so (which includes but is not limited to, handling fees, reimbursement for travel, lodging, food expenses), otherwise you would be classified as a Pro Handler.

I've taken in dogs for people I just met that weekend, because they needed an extra pair of hands.

[RKCM]

So you do not need to be the owner to show the dogs, you can get help ...just not paid for it. Right?

[Panama]

I've seen a lot of people help one another by taking a dog in for them. Usually when someone brings multiple dogs of both sexes across multiple classes, they will more then likely need an extra pair of hands. Or if for some reason, the owner cannot take their dog in the ring (injury or illness), they can have a friend take the dog in.

The last show we were at, a lady came in with 3 English Mastiffs, a female pup, an adult female and an adult male, and she was by herself. Friends were more then willing to take a lead and take one of her dogs in when it came down to Best Female, BOW or BOB.

[DoberTwink]

Like I said on another thread....I do think more judges should withhold and I also think the judges approval process should be changed....it is much to easy to get a judges license in UKC. JMO

[DoberTwink]

Oh, this explains the post I saw on the UKC message boards this morning haha :)

I must co-own everything I show and can no longer help people with their dogs. By UKC definition, I am a pro handler. By AKC and my own definition, I help my friends out but have received "compensation". I miss showing other people's dogs sometimes but sometimes I don't...it can be a great learning tool to show other dogs but if they aren't trained, it can be a real pain in the you know what....LOL

[nterry]

Restricting handlers may make it easier for the owners locally to finish a dog but it does not promote exhibits outside the area. It may be they do know want more competition, a problem in promoting acceptance in the full community.

[nterry]

The dogs in the survey says owners win over handlers more often. Posted above says that a handler would be someone that has a # to handle and is listed in the book. I don't know if AKC defines handler except by the listing or ?

Some of us appreciate handlers because of time saved for training and being with the dogs at home. There is pride in finishing fast and absolutely nothing wrong with using a skilled handler, in fact it's preferred by many breeders that have other dogs to tend.

[Panama]

I agree 100%, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a skilled handler. I personally enjoy showing my own dogs and what we accomplish together.

[DoberTwink]

Look at it this way....take for example, cooking....some people are great cooks, others....not so much...some people are very schooled and experienced and are just 5 star meal kind of cooks while other very schooled and experienced people are just diner meal kinda of cooks....it's the same with handling a dog.....some people are just naturally better at it....some are better because of their "schooling" and experience....others who have been at it for decades still can't show a dog worth a darn....So, yes, I think there are times when people should get a handler...including many of the reasons I've seen in this thread.

However, to play devils advocate....I can tell you that I've seen with my own 2 eyes, handler after handler win when there were better dogs in the ring....now, please take into consideration that some of these dogs may or may not have been handled by owners and some by other handlers and also that I may not be seeing what the judge is seeing form the middle of the ring. However, there are often times, things that I just don't understand. I realize that judging is all a matter of opinion but our standard is SOOOOOO detailed...how can any judge pick something so very NOT standard? I've seen it....now, granted, 99% of the time it's an all around judge, not a breeder judge....breeder judges are much easier to read and understand their choices. So since there seems to be no logical reason for why they chose that dog....that leaves the handler....and I think that's why many people jump right to that conclusion. Now, let me follow that by saying, I can guarantee you that I have many a time walked into a ring knowing I wasn't going to win (or shouldn't). I know what my dogs are and what they're not. I've also skipped shows once I found out who was in my class because why bother? They ARE better AND they have a handler, I have a snowballs chance in hell of winning that! haha And I shouldn't win that! But let me give you an example that i have tweeked for purposes of hiding names/dogs/etc......I was at a show....there were 4 bitches in WB....Kyra with me in am bred, a 12-18 with a handler, bred by with owner handler/breeder and 9-12 with owner handler. IMO, the bred by or 9-12 should have won, no questions asked. both of them, siblings, were better than Kyra will ever be. The 12-18 bitch wasn't even on my radar....the handler wasn't a "big gun" and she was no where near as nice as the siblings or Kyra. I could go into details of each dog and what I liked and didn't like and why I would have picked one of the siblings....but I won't bore you with my details...the judge was an all arounder and damned if she didn't pick the worst specimen in the ring for WB, the ONLY one with a handler, this was the ONLY day she won, 2 days of breeder judges went to the bred by and the sibling....so what are exhibitors and spectators to think and feel about a situation like this?? Are we to think that this all around judge made a political choice by going with the only handler in the ring or are we to think that she really is that ignorant of our standard?? Seeing as AKC's judge approval process is a pretty good one, it's hard to think that any of these judges are ingornant and sure, they can't be experts on every breed but seriously? this was a no brainer....it wasn't like splitting hairs here...no, it was the dummy's guide to doberman judging and she FAILED miserably. :( I don't expect all around judges to be experts but I do expect them to understand basic movement and structure and form follows function....sadly, I am not convinced that they even know that.....That is why I say owner handlers have to pic and choose their judges wisely....someone like this won't ever get another entry from me.....not because I didn't win but because she chose the most non standard dog in the ring (regardless of the reason why), IMO...and as someone who still believes in the purpose of conformation shows, I just can't support that kind of judging. And please, before anyone's feathers get ruffled, this is just an example, but a real life one....it DID happen. I've also seen judges who are obviously not watching down and backs, acting like they don't actually want to be there or that they already know who's going to win....I can't get on board with that kind of BS. It's detrimental to our breed and it's insulting to those of us who are doing this for the right reasons. :mad: There are GOOD judges out there....judges who actually want to be there and want to help your breed by chosing what they feel is the best fit to your standard......judges who understand your standard and also have a firm grip on basic movement and structure.......sometimes you just have to look harder for them. :p

It is all a big mystery to me but I still have mixed emotions about the politics of it all....but don't get me wrong, it's not just AKC....there are politics in UKC too.....I think it comes down to human nature....and the fact that this is all based on opinion and EVERYONE'S opinion is different. That's why you will see people who have similar opinions sticking together and then "going after" other groups who have different opinions. haha This is a big part of why I do not like the fancy as a whole....every breed has people who seem very one sided on many issues and are not open to other concepts.....close mindedness will kill our breeds and kill the fancy....:eek:

[RKCM]

Wow! That's what you pay for is their opinion and why it's a good idea to look up and see what the judge has put up in the past. It's all published on the AKC site. For me, the best dogs always stay in the ribbons and finishes. Those that aren't right, have a harder road even with a handler. I guess the owner of the dog thought it was worthy. But it is a sport, and if we all evaluated them the same, why have shows? I think for the most part judges want to do a good job, even if we don't agree, it is their opinion you paid.

And according to accounting, the owner handlers are winning more often. Let me also say that the best handler to me are those that are usually well known breeders themselves.

And truthfully, coming from a family full of judges, I could be bias. But I will say without a doubt when you enter my ring, you get my opinion, like it or not and friend, handler, or unknown, makes no difference. I'm there is judge the dogs. Big entries speak a lot for what the fancy thinks of their opinion and very important you do that research.

In the doberman ring, there are many outstanding dog being shown by some experienced hands and there is a lot of learn by watching someone with that touch present your dog. If nothing else, you learn something more. But you are right it's not for the faint of heart, because there is competition and it's fierce in this breed. Saying that doesn't mean the fancy are, there are some great sports and breeders out there, and a few that aren't, that's in everything, just life. And it isn't cheap. LOL

[DoberTwink]

Wow! That's what you pay for is their opinion and why it's a good idea to look up and see what the judge has put up in the past. It's all published on the AKC site. For me, the best dogs always stay in the ribbons and finishes. Those that aren't right, have a harder road even with a handler. I guess the owner of the dog thought it was worthy. But it is a sport, and if we all evaluated them the same, why have shows? I think for the most part judges want to do a good job, even if we don't agree, it is their opinion you paid.

Yes, I know I paid for their her opinion but I surely won't ever again haha I do my research, as much as can be done, sometimes you take a risk on a judge because there isn't enough info available...I will try a judge at least once....

And according to accounting, the owner handlers are winning more often. Let me also say that the best handler to me are those that are usually well known breeders themselves.

I don't believe all that accounting, how could it take into account dogs who are shown by handlers but don't have agents listed? I doubt the MBF people are watching every ring to see what dogs have handlers and what dogs don't. You can't rely on the "agent" input info, it's not accurate. And the very important question of...who wins more Majors...has yet to be answered

And truthfully, coming from a family full of judges, I could be bias. But I will say without a doubt when you enter my ring, you get my opinion, like it or not and friend, handler, or unknown, makes no difference. I'm there is judge the dogs. Big entries speak a lot for what the fancy thinks of their opinion and very important you do that research.

I'm glad you are one of the "good ones" :D I don't know about entries reflecting what people think all the time....most times, yes but on big circuits that "always" pull Majors....the judges can be crap and it'll still pull Majors....Majors full of handlers....I don't often waste my time at those shows unless I think the judge is worthy of my entry or I'm giving someone a 1st try. But you are right, research, research, research!!

In the doberman ring, there are many outstanding dog being shown by some experienced hands and there is a lot of learn by watching someone with that touch present your dog. If nothing else, you learn something more. But you are right it's not for the faint of heart, because there is competition and it's fierce in this breed. Saying that doesn't mean the fancy are, there are some great sports and breeders out there, and a few that aren't, that's in everything, just life. And it isn't cheap. LOL

I spent almost a year before I ever stepped foot into a ring, watching handlers, watching videos, reading articles and training materials, watching more handlers, watching different handlers, etc.....I watched Gwen, Rissa, Diego, Esteban, Michelle Scott, as well as many other local handlers/breeder and even some successful owner hanlders. I stepped foot in my first AKC ring in Jan 2009 and took WB with my friends doberman. ;) In the last 3 years I have put 11pts on my own bitch, including a Major from a breeder judge, as well as several points on other people's dogs. I don't claim to be as good as the pros but I can hold my own. They are the ones who push me to be better, they are the ones who helped convince me that I needed a better dog (my first 2 are pets)....they have made me a better handler but I still often feel like I'm not getting a fair shake, I can't imagine what people who are lesser skilled owner handlers are feeling....:confused:

[RKCM]

You maybe right. It seems you did well starting out with a competitive dog. I don't know about your situation or judge, there is always a few in all subjective sports, but like I've said what you consider the best, others may not. Look at the WD this year and all the backlash that caused with he shouldn't of went up. Frankly, I thought he was a nice dog and so did the well known breeder judge.
He took a bashing and to me that's bad sportmanship. If you don't like the judges selection, don't show under that judge. That is what I've seen happen to judges that don't do a good job, the exhibitors don't enter and with time the clubs won't hire them. And remember there is always the rep to go too, but basically it is the judges opinion. The rep can question the judge and have a say in new breeds. Actually, they grade the provisionals and judge discuss the selection.

The accounting on who's winning in the ring was on another post. If the handler had a # and was listed as a handler, it was counted as such. It was determined that owners win more often. I see no reason for them to falsify that information. In my area, most of the best are also breeders who are most always listed as handlers.

Speaking of handlers, I understand FIFI's owner handled her at the Eukanuba. I believe she won 3 of the 4 days with groups wins.

Hiring a handler has two benefits for the novice. You get a free evaluation if the dog is worthy of finishing and second you can watch of how they would present your dog. Hopefully learning something or like you said, get a new dog. The best hands won't take dogs that can't finish.

[Panama]

Ok, say you hit a 6 show cluster... any venue... can a dog finish?

[Panama]

Ok, there's an AKC view on the possibility of finishing in a 6 show cluster. Any other venue?

[Panama]

Ok, clarification .... Conformation... any venue... 6 show cluster.... can a dog finish?

[RKCM]

In The AKC:

That is possible, although I've never known of a dog zipping through in 6 back to back shows. Like I've said when you have 20-30 or more dogs, there are choices and each judge may select a different WD or WD, but the best are usually in the running, placing in the classes for consideration. That has been my observation. In other breeds, it isn't so hard to finish a dog in 6 back to back shows, depends on the breed. It's very rare in dobermans, but possible.

Obedience and the performance events it is likely to finish, since the judging is between you and the dog and what that dog does that day. A well train dog can zip through but they have more than one dog qualifying. Very different than the breed ring.

[DoberTwink]

Lol, it does take a little longer to finish a dog in the AKC. I guess when we have bred the number of champions that the judge has, passed the test, and prove ourselves we can judge everyone else's entries. Remember you are not the only exhibitor that thought their dog should of won.

Actually, I said that my dog should NOT have won or did you miss that line....:D

And not to be putting you down or anyone, but the exhibitors are crying about the over angulated South American dogs. Frankly, I like some angles so it doesn't bother me, but could be very well why you did not win. The standard is something we all strive to achieve perfection, but there are none. What you think should of won was not the judges and what I call sour grapes. They do the honors of selecting and like stated, if you don't like the judge, don't enter under them. If we all saw the dogs the same, there would be no shows. I think if you have only shown since 09 that you will learn with time.

I understand that and IMO, the 2 siblings were much better than WB or my bitch....and that is MY opinion and many of my peers opinion too as this incident was discussed afterwards

UKC is great, but far easier to rate and be successful. The AKC takes more and the competition is there. It is not for the faint of heart dear. I travel to the AKC shows from Canada and finish dogs here. There are always opinions and the only one that awards the points is the judge, take it or leave it.

Just trying to give real life examples of how I'm sure everyone has felt at one time or another. As I stated before, I won't show to that judge ever again but at the time, I didn't have enough knowledge (via my research) to make a good decision on whether or not I "should" have entered or not. It was just an example for this discussion.

[DoberTwink]

Ok, wow, I think everyone took my post in the wrong way....it was merely to give an example....and I clearly stated that I did NOT think my bitch should have won. Why did everyone miss that?? You all automatically jumped to sour grapes.....I'm not sour (of course I'm also not sweet :p)

I understand everything everyone has stated and I don't disagree with it...we pay for their opinions and everyone's opinions are different. I was merely giving a real life example of a situation that could APPEAR to many people (including myself) as having been a political choice. And of course a choice I didn't agree with but not because I didn't win. GOSH! :rolleyes:

I am NOT a professional handler like Gwen or Diego or Michelle Scott. By UKC standards I am a PH because I have in the past received compensation but I am by no means a TRUE professional handler. I have a day job. I show very little AKC compared to real handlers. I'm not even a weekend warrior. I pick and chose my judges and shows carefully, most of the time, although I'll admit I've "thrown" a little money away on shows/judges where I knew I had no chance just so I could go hang out with my friends. haha

We only attended 12 AKC shows in 2011, in those 12 shows, she won 2 WB/BW, including a BOB over a BIS winning GrCh and her Major which came from a breeder judge and at least one RWB, can't remember. 8 of the 12 shows were Majors. She has won and placed in many competitive classes with several RWB over her lifetime. Seeing as she's my first real show dog and I have only been doing this for 3yrs, I think that's pretty darn good and I also think that it speaks to her quality and worth but thanks for your concerns. ;)

And that is "all I have to say about that" :) Peace out!

[nterry]

Not sent a dog to the states since the AKC grand champion was put in the award, I thought you had to be an AKC champion to be awarded Grand Champion points. Correct? Clarify?

Looks like you did well with your dog and let you be proud. I saw your post as a way to say we have politics with SOME judges but it is not with all. If you jumped in the ring winning a AKC major and winning two of 12 with your dog while placing, I'd say that you also did well. The system is not perfect but it is the system that the world calls the Americans Champions. Selecting judges and showing the dog will give you that coveted award soon. Good luck.

I don't know much about the UKC as many across the continent but if it is fun do what makes you and your dog a team and enjoy. There is never anything wrong with that, but understand it is not perfect either with far less competition as I understand. Until the best compete and not saying yours is not, but I mean all the best in the states compete, you will see the awards as lacking and less respected, if that matters. Some are more serious about comparing what can improve our own and those of us away from you look at the AKC shows, seldom the UKC. Why do you think that is?

[Panama]

Not sure Meejin will be back or not, but......

Top 10 points are awarded at the breed level only. A dog must take BOB (with competition) to acquire Top 10 points. Points are calculated by the # of dogs defeated.

Looking at the UKC website, http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/WebPages/DETopTen2011 Kyra (at the last posting) had 152 pts. This list was last updated Dec 18th (final 2011 pts will be posted Jan 13th), so if she's shown and taken BOB the last 2 wks of Dec it could be higher.

Keep in mind UKC shows (and clubs) are much smaller then AKC shows (and clubs), and most of the time it is difficult to find competition. Which is why we try to encourage and bring in more exhibitors.

[RKCM]

Thanks for the info. on the UKC.

I just heard from my friend that has dogs entered in the Florida curcuit, everyone is going I guess. There are 70 dog entered! I am not sure if that is the classes or with the BOB entries, still BIG Majors. Haven't seen that many in awhile. Big competition. Yes, there are many more dogs shown in the AKC shows which makes it harder to that one WD or WB to take the honors. Different game all together.

[RKCM]

Not sure Meejin will be back or not, but......

Top 10 points are awarded at the breed level only. A dog must take BOB (with competition) to acquire Top 10 points. Points are calculated by the # of dogs defeated.

Looking at the UKC website, http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/WebPages/DETopTen2011 Kyra (at the last posting) had 152 pts. This list was last updated Dec 18th (final 2011 pts will be posted Jan 13th), so if she's shown and taken BOB the last 2 wks of Dec it could be higher.

Keep in mind UKC shows (and clubs) are much smaller then AKC shows (and clubs), and most of the time it is difficult to find competition. Which is why we try to encourage and bring in more exhibitors.


A Win is a win and good for her for showing.

For comparing, at a recent AKC the #1 bitch took a group one, not Best in Show and dogs defeated just in the working group was about 450 dogs. Those aren't points but dogs defeated and is one way we rate the dogs in the AKC. A best in show would commonly be thousand or more. The shows are smaller than they use to be but still draw. Majors are hard to find too, requiring about 20 bitches to make a major. I posted above that Florida drew about 70 dobermans but unsure of how many are class dogs. Big entries are not common in the smaller shows. Tulsa has had them often. Dallas, Ft. Worth, Kansas, and the larger cities and shows will usually draw a major. It it harder to win when you have that many choices. Many of the dogs are pointed and travel to these larger shows to compete for the majors. I really wish they had more of them, makes it harder to finish for sure.

[Panama]

Well, I enjoy the UKC shows. To each their own.

[Panama]

I don't use either of my dog's UKC CH titles to justify anything other then we accomplished them TOGETHER (and yet again w/pretty tough competition).

If you don't like the UKC venue, then continue not supporting it. The only thing I have left to say is..... so many times I've heard "be a part of the solution, not the problem". If we can't encourage more people to present WORTHY dogs, you're going to see more of the mediocre and poor quality dogs that you, me and many others are complaining about!

For those that do show UKC... Happy Showing!

[RKCM]

While it is an opinion and choice to show in the UKC and AKC, there is a fine line between insulting people that show in a venue. The rules on the forum state we should not insult other members. Several of the mods are done with the back n forth on the AKC and the UKC. Both are a great venue and do not mean the dog should be bred. I don't mind speaking out on poor quality dog but condemning a whole venue is not productive to the breed or the forum.

Any further discuss on that needs to be worded with care. Remember we all love our dogs and doing something with them is a good thing.

I'm tired of the subject and so are other members. Consider this a warning to show respect to what others do whether it be the AKC or the UKC.
This means everyone! I've had enough PM's and emails. The matter is closed but I'd like to leave this thread open. Please respect this request.

[Panama]

Obviously both venues are tired of hearing what the other(s) don't like about each other's venues of choice. Opinions have been stated and points have been made (both good and bad of all venues), now it needs to stop. If all that can be said is negative, it would be greatly appreciated if you move on rather then bashing or trying to degrade the time and effort someone has put into their dog(s) or the venue in which they choose to participate in and support.

[lewisipso]

Show whatever venue you show, be proud of it and be done with it. Forward of that be supportive of what this forum is about and that is the dogs.

[Panama]

There are several Judging Seminars scheduled.

Feb 16 & 17 -Santa Rosa, CA
Mar 30 & 31 -Hickory, NC
and probably one at the Gateway Nationals (Oct)

We are hoping the president (Wayne Cavanaugh) will address (and stress) the importance of witholding placement when lack of merit warrants. It is an issue many long time supporting exhibitors as well as newcomers and judges have expressed to UKC that needs to be addressed.

[RKCM]

The withholding of ribbons is not a popular decision with the exhibitor that has entered and expects a ribbon, but it is something the clubs need to support when judge make that decision. I read on the UKC website where a judge gave a first place in the class and then withhold winners (guess that's what it's called) With the class win the dog was still awarded points. Judges have to know exactly how to withhold points so the seminars is a good thing. I would hope they would also send out letters explaining their procedure to every judge, in case they don't go.

The clubs need to be as interested in preserving the breed standard, as the fancy. When a person that has a dog that is lacking merit, the judge needs to do what is right an withhold, regardless of the support.

Good thing to hear and thanks Panama for that information.

We need to all support both clubs because it is the only shows we have and there are some that would like to discontinue not only our breed but the shows that are so rewarding for the dogs and fun for the exhibitors. And really bites, champion or pet it is individual breeders that have to make the ethical decisions to breed or fix their dogs. All we control is ourselves.

[Logan]

Obviously both venues are tired of hearing what the other(s) don't like about each other's venues of choice. Opinions have been stated and points have been made (both good and bad of all venues), now it needs to stop. If all that can be said is negative, it would be greatly appreciated if you move on rather then bashing or trying to degrade the time and effort someone has put into their dog(s) or the venue in which they choose to participate in and support.


Well said :)

[MountainPonies]

Perhaps someone who is an exhibitor and supporter of the UKC could suggest that the UKC reach to to the different breed clubs to take advantage of their respective Judges education programs. The DPCA has done this for AKC Judges to ensure they adhere to the breed standard and to provide mentorship whenever possible http://www.dpca.org/JEC/ and I see no reason why the DPCA should not extend the same educational opportunities to UKC judges - seems like a win/win to me

[Panama]

I believe I might have seen parent clubs mentioned, and I think it would be a great idea.

[Panama]

I'm not going to 'assume' anything. However, wouldn't it be in the breed's best interest if all parent clubs helped one another?

Breeders that are DPCA members is an entirely different topic, but, I will admit, there are a few that I would steer clear of.

[MountainPonies]

I don't know how that all would work because the DPCA is a member club of the AKC and very active in forming AKC policy by sending delegates to the meetings with voting rights in policy. They are part of the AKC.

I think the DPCA should represent all dobermans regardless of where they are registered or shown there are many dobes showing inUKC that are double registered in AKC first and then UKC - the DPCA is the parent club who should be advocates for all dobermans.

[RKCM]

I think the DPCA should represent all dobermans regardless of where they are registered or shown there are many dobes showing inUKC that are double registered in AKC first and then UKC - the DPCA is the parent club who should be advocates for all dobermans.

They should and do MountainPonies. I think Bites explained that the DPCA is a member club of the AKC. The AKC is made up of members clubs and are a part of it.

Why would you say they don't support all dobermans?

I think they very clearly do that in seminars and education and health research and in putting on one the largest National specialty in the country. And let's no forget the rescues that are sponsored by the clubs. They do alot. What more are you suggesting?

[RKCM]

Perhaps someone who is an exhibitor and supporter of the UKC could suggest that the UKC reach to to the different breed clubs to take advantage of their respective Judges education programs. The DPCA has done this for AKC Judges to ensure they adhere to the breed standard and to provide mentorship whenever possible http://www.dpca.org/JEC/ and I see no reason why the DPCA should not extend the same educational opportunities to UKC judges - seems like a win/win to me

The DPCA to my knowledge does not restrict who attends their seminars and mentors are listed that are very willing and able to assist people who want to know more about the breed. It would be up to the individual judge of the UKC to go, not the DPCA to make that request. The UKC has a procedure that licenses judges for entire groups with little experience and with less experience, and less required like seminars, you don't have all of them participating, but that is not the DPCA fault. They put on their shows and do their job. Dictating the rules or requirements of the UKC judges is not in their power. They have their own clubs that should and may do that. Just saying.

[Panama]

Do you think they would mentor judges that are not AKC affiliated?

[RKCM]

Do you think they would mentor judges that are not AKC affiliated?

The mentors are on the website listed and you'd have to ask them that question. Those are individuals that work for the club and promote the breed. I know that one of my best friends, and mentor is on that list and has never refused to help anyone. So I'd guess, that they do but they will not be seeking out the UKC judges to mentor. They would need to contact them. I strongly suspect that there would be a host of those mentors that would put on UKC seminars if asked too.....lots of possibilities, but it is not the DPCA job as they are the AKC. Let's be clear about that before we demand more or be critical of an organization that does the MOST for this breed. Not that you have, just pointing that out.

But I think to say that you expect the DPCA to mentor UKC is a little much. The DPCA is part of the AKC, that is what the AKC is, a group of member clubs. The UKC has the same responsibility and need to do more if they are not already doing that. And as stated, many of these mentors participate in both the UKC and the AKC.

That's my take on it anyway.

[RKCM]

Sorry, Panama, yes I think they would because their mission statement mentions they will help judges, aspiring judges, and breeders. Here is the contract list of mentors by state:

http://www.dpca.org/JEC/mentors.htm

But it would not be the mentors job to tell you that you need mentoring or the DPCA responsibility to contact these judges.

Remember that each AKC club or specialties have delegates to the AKC that have the following mission:

"The American Kennel Club is a not-for-profit organization devoted to the advancement of purebred dogs. AKC is a "club of clubs", comprised of over 500 member clubs and almost 5000 affiliated clubs. There are no individual members. Each member club exercises its voting privileges through a representative known as a "delegate." The delegates form the legislative body of the AKC, making the rules and electing from their body the individuals who serve on AKC's Board of Directors"

So in that statement, the AKC is part of the DPCA and without the member clubs like the AKC there is no AKC. You can't have one without the other. Each club is run by their own rules that the members control. Just thought this needs to be clear.

[nterry]

I think the DPCA should represent all dobermans regardless of where they are registered or shown there are many dobes showing inUKC that are double registered in AKC first and then UKC - the DPCA is the parent club who should be advocates for all dobermans.

Are you suggesting that the DPCA does not advocate for all dobermans. One needs to only travel to one of the National specialties to see all the committees that work hard for the breed.

Interest information and it appears the DPCA is the AKC and part of it. Do you belong? What do you do to promote the DPCA and their lengthy efforts?

Americans are so funny to those that are across the ocean. You want to divide yourself and argue over tit and tad and do nothing to get the job done. If the DPCA is part of the AKC and you don't like the shows, get involved and send a delegate. You know a democracy that is promoted there. LOL.

I understand that the UKC has small numbers, why don't they go with the DPCA and make a big stand on dog legislation, instead of tearing down the only organization that is representing you. Makes no sense to us over here. Let the UKC do the bite work and the AKC do the shows. I mean how hard is this to figure out?

I will say that if the UKC is fun for you fine, but coming on a forum and tearing down the DPCA when it is the AKC is suicide not for you but for the breed. Who do you think is spending the bucks and the money to defend you in owning dobermans. They are! Get behind them and stop the silly claims and back n forth. The AKC is the biggest show in the states, why compete in anything else when their entries are slowing. Do you really think the UKC will overtake them, not a chance. Go to the Nationals and you will see breeders, novices, and all wantta be judges or judges can go to their seminars. IT's for everyone. I saw this first hand and in fact went to a few. If you want to do the UKC fine but you will not find the best dogs there and you won't win as much. They are not the same and since some of you don't understand that you need to unite on this like the United States use to do. This is very simple really.

This forum need to understand that until you get behind the breed clubs you are doomed and don't be surprised when you are left with uncropped, undocked, and restrictions on even owning this breed. That is how serious it is, folks. I know, it happened over here. Best to all of you and hope you wake up. Have fun but support who supports the breed, DPCA.

And understand I care not if you show in the UKC, do it if that is what you enjoy with your dog, but not at the expense of saying that the DPCA is nothing, because that is just plain out of line. In fact it is now against their bylaws which I think some of us are glad to see. Enough is enough.

And like said in another post, it is the UKC and the UDC to put on and educate these judges. And it is the judges that need to take the time and spend the money to do it where ever it's offered. The DPCA is the AKC, they have no obligation to do more than they already do for the breed. It is the national breed club and one respected by the world, not just a few. Be proud and support the breed. But not at the expense of leaving them looking like the bad guy, they are NOT!

[MountainPonies]

Are you suggesting that the DPCA does not advocate for all dobermans. One needs to only travel to one of the National specialties to see all the committees that work hard for the breed.

Interest information and it appears the DPCA is the AKC and part of it. Do you belong? What do you do to promote the DPCA and their lengthy efforts?


nterry - if the DPCA is restricted because of its affiliation with the AKC to only AKC registered dobermans - then The DPCA is not advocating for all dobermans.

I know very well, probably better than you, exactly what the DPCA does and does not do. What committees there are and exactly how productive each of those committees are. I do follow the decisions of the board and what the committees are reporting.

I can't quite understand why you have turned this into an indictment of myslef and what I do or do not do, the discussion was about what could be done to help UKC judges be better educated about jdging our breed.

As to my membership affiliation... I'll show you mine if you show me yours, and because I respect my elders - you go first!

[DoberTwink]

UDC is not affiliated with UKC, it is it's own registry and hold it's own events, etc....I think they have had a "relationship" with the DPCA over the years but are not "affiliated" in so many words. The ONLY UKC affiliated doberman club is the newly formed Ohio Doberman Club. (It won't let me post the link) This club was just created and still in the works, we have been approved by UKC and are working on getting some matches going and then working towards our own shows/specialties. UKC doesn't require a breed to have a "parent club", Dobermans have never had a UKC club before, at least not as far as I know of, there may have been one long ago before my time. This newly formed club will allow us to hold UKC Doberman Specialties, will follow the UKC Doberman standard but we have our own code of ethics (on top of the UKC code). I hope that in the future we are able to provide better judges education for the UKC judges. If any of you would like to help, please join our club and lend a hand! Help us make the UKC Doberman "program" better!:D

UKC also has it's own legislative dept who do the very same kinds of things that the AKC dept does. Maybe not to the same scale and numbers, but they are out there on the front lines supporting our rights just the same.

As for the separation, it DOESNT' HAVE TO BE THAT WAY! I am active in both venues, I am the President of the local AKC all breed club, a DPCA member, a local AKC/DPCA specialty club member and former show chairman but I'm also a member of the Ohio Doberman Club, Hampton Roads KC and Orange County Coon Hunters which are all UKC clubs...I think both have things to offer our breed and I take the good with the bad. And sure, I'm certain some of you think I'm an AKC hater but really I'm not....there are things I love about AKC and hate about UKC and vice versa. It just happens that the discussions I've had on here happened to be about some of the AKC negatives
(for me) haha But no hard feelings...I'm a good sport or at least I try to be. :cool:

[RKCM]

Thanks for clearing that up. I know little about the UKC and hope you'll be able to provide a link and fill us in on the only specialty UKC club. Good for them! And good for you!

None of us are haters, we just bark a little at times. LOL

[DoberTwink]

Let me try to post this link....

http://www.raneydays.com/ohio_doberman_club

It looks like the original founding date is 2006 but from what I understand there wasn't enough interest in the club to really get it off the ground. Hopefully this time around will be different. :) I'm looking forward to helping this club grow.

[RKCM]

Thanks for the link and wishing them the best in a successful club.

What is the UDC club? Understand you said it is not part of the UKC but do you know more about it. Good information for the forum.

[nterry]

nterry - if the DPCA is restricted because of its affiliation with the AKC to only AKC registered dobermans - then The DPCA is not advocating for all dobermans.

I know very well, probably better than you, exactly what the DPCA does and does not do. What committees there are and exactly how productive each of those committees are. I do follow the decisions of the board and what the committees are reporting.

I can't quite understand why you have turned this into an indictment of myslef and what I do or do not do, the discussion was about what could be done to help UKC judges be better educated about jdging our breed.

As to my membership affiliation... I'll show you mine if you show me yours, and because I respect my elders - you go first!

In the few national specialties the DPCA has not and does not restrict seminars to AKC judges, there are many that live in other countries that are included and do participate. Where did you get that idea? While the DPCA is a part of the AKC their mission is not for just the AKC.

And I belong to the Kennel club and my area in the UK including the national doberman club here. I have supported the dpca in entries from time to time but am not a member and won't be. There are only a few in your area so thinking if you aren't, you should join if you want to assist.

I am saying that the DPCA isn't to blame if judges don't go to their educational classes, it is their own fault.

[DoberTwink]

http://www.uniteddobermanclub.com/

I don't have much personal experience with this club. Kyra is registered with them because I hope to do things with her w/in this club in the future.

What I know is what you can also find on their website, they are very working oriented. Many of their dogs would not make it in the AKC show ring just as many AKC show ring dogs wouldn't make it on the working field. They have their own conformations shows and CH and to get a CH you have to pass an age appropriate temperament test and I think maybe you have to pass some health clearances too but not sure. Heavy European working lines in many of their dogs but there are also American bred dogs too, just not as many that I know of. I believe Susan Miller (Ava's breeder, the Catawba bitch who just got her Sch1) competes in UDC. Also dogs like Gunnar Red Dog Red and Vikings Charlie Brown (2 Am bred Am Ch with Sch titles). It seems like they are very much for the "total" package.

http://www.uniteddobermanclub.com/club/affiliations.html Looks like they ARE affiliated with DPCA as well as 2 working dog clubs. But it shows no connection to UKC.

They hold working dogs trials such as IPO and also hold BH and ZTP.

I look forward to attending some of their events with the member club, Working Dogs of the Carolinas in the future.

[nterry]

Good information. I thought they were the too