Need Help With Agression

[MLR]

Hi,

I'm new to this site but love it. I need advice on what to do about unexpected, unprovoked agression with one of my dogs. I have 2 dobermans; one male age 4 1/2 weighing 98 1/2 lbs and one female age 2 1/2 weighing 92 lbs. Both dogs were fixed when they were 6 months old. My problem is the female. About eight months ago she started having what I call fits of agression towards my male. He is really docile and gentle. When she goes into one of her fits she starts growling and barking at him and biting. Once she ripped his ear and he had to have 5 stiches to close the wound. I haven't seen anything about this on this site and wondered if anyone has any ideas on how to figure out why she does this. None of these attacks, as far as I can see, has been provoked by my male. Most of the time it will happen when they are just laying around watching me at the computer or at bed time. They both sleep in their own seperate crates. At bed time she has on a couple of occaisions gone right into his crate after him.

Nothing works at those times. I've tried swatting her with a belt because it is very frightening, which only makes it worse. Afterwards I put a muzzle on her to give her a time out punishment which she seems to get and then she is ok for a while. But the rest of the times she does this are unpredictable. I constantly remind her that this is a big no no when I think she is getting into one of those 'moods' and this sometimes works but not always.

I've heard from friends that some dobermans just 'turn' on their owners but have never heard of one turning on their canine companion like this. I've had her checked by my vet and there is nothing wrong with her physically. She has even nipped at me a couple of times when she gets excited.

I've had both dogs since they were 5 1/2 weeks and 4 1/2 weeks old respectively and they have never been encouraged to be agressive. I guess she showed signs of being this way when she was a puppy. Once when I was kneeling to pick up something off the floor and my granddaughter wanted me to move so she could use the hand vac near where I was kneeling and I couldn't hear her over the noise she, my grranddaughter, reached out and patted at me and the female hunkered down low and growled at her as a warning not to touch me. I thought it was cute at the time but she hasn't really repeated that.

Because she is incontenent from her female surgery when I go away I chain her to a kitchen stool. She has access to food and water and can drag her living room bed into the kitchen and lay down on it to be comfortable from that position. Lately, however, if she is chained to the stool as I am getting ready to leave, or when I come home and haven't gotten her off the chain yet, and someone comes to the door she growls at the person. Normally when she is off this inside chain she runs to great whoever it is at the door like my male and is friendly to them. She seems to accept the chain and comes willingly to me to have it put on her when I am going to go somewhere. I never leave her like that for more than a couple of hours. I am retired so these are like trips to the store. They both take naps during the day for about 3 hours in their crates and I do try to do what I have to away from the house during that time frame.

I think the biggest problem with her is that she really didn't get the one on one training that my male did when he was the only dog. But even when I try to just take her by herself out she acts a little crazy like backing up and taking a running lunge forward and pulling me off my feet. Needless to say I have given up on trying to manage her by herself. She is fine walking in tandum with my male. She even knows she is to be on the right of him and to my left, sandwiched in the middle of us.

Any suggestions would be welcome. I am at my wits end with her to the point that I have thought of finding her another home where she is the only dog. But the incontenance problem stops me. No one else would put up with that and I'm afraid she would end up being abused or worse yet being put down.

Thanks, Mary Lou

[jelly8bean]

My first thought is get a behaviorlist to evaluate the home situation. Second, do some training classes unique to your girl. Another thought is to crate her rather than chain her to the stool. You need to pay more attention to the possible sources of the issues.. is it at a certain time of day? Any other signals? Does she get excited and then the male walks by? You have to really sit up and pay alot of attention. What sort of Moods do you notice that make you aware? Perhaps when she starts to indicate the "mood" you should crate her so she gets the idea that this is not acceptable. There would be so much more that could be causing the issues.. you can not get this sort of help over the internet. Maybe some private visits from a reputable trainer that is good with working dogs?

[magtie]

I agree. find the source try and find the source of the issue and find a good trainer who is willing to to come to your home for some one-on-one training.

[MLR]

Thanks Magtie & Jelly8bean.

I live in Battle Creek, Michigan and to my knowledge there is only one trainer who will come to your home but I was turned off to his approach when I called him over some minor problem with my male dobe a couple of years ago. His idea of training any dog was to wear them out to the point that they were too tired to do anything but sit still. Needles to say I love my dogs too much to put either of them through that kind of treatment.

Chloe, my female, doesn't give any warning when she goes off on Hercules, my male. It's almost like she's bi-polar. I mean, one time the two of them can be playing and sharing a toy and another time they will start out playing and all of a sudden she goes biserk and attacks him. It's the same thing at bed time. One time she goes peacefuly into her crate and another time she gets into a rage mood and goes after Hercules as if she doesn't even know him, like he is an attacking intruder which she sees as a threat. I've never seen anything like it.

Being mainly a cat person before my two dobes came along I recognize that there is a pecking order with certain groups of animals. My oldest male cat, for instance, is definently the boss of the house. Even Hercules won't go through a doorway if Calvin the old cat is sitting in it. I have to go pick up the cat before Hercules will go into the next room. And if one of my younger cats pesters one of the older ones, if they're not in the mood to play, they get a cuff and sometimes a growl. But this isn't like that. This is just plain mood swing crazy as if she doesn't recognize Hercules at all at those times when this happens.

Hercules is becoming afraid of her and that is sad. He has championship blood lines and is beautiful and smart (both parents were on site when my son bought him). I only met Chloe's mother and got to see a picture of her father. They are both pure breeds and AKC registered but I have some doubts about her parentage. If I toss a ball toward Hercules he leaps in the air, poses and catches it and brings it back to me. But when I toss a ball in Chloe's direction she just looks at it, it bounces between her eyes and falls to the ground and lays there until I pick it up. There is definently something not quite right with her. Yet at other times she can be quite helpful and nice to Hercules. If he can't get his ball from under something like a chair she will go after it and bring it to him. So none of her agressive behavior makes any sense.

The closest thing I've seen that resembles what she is like when she is in one of her moods was on a show on Animal Planet about wolf packs and how one female will be the dominent one over the other females. But Chloe is fixed and they get plenty to eat so there shouldn't be any issues between them. I always give them both the same treats at the same time, although I'm now making her wait until Hercules finishes his before she gets hers to let her know he's superior to her. (I read this somewhere.) That seems to be helping a little when she's in a good mood, but nothing works when she snaps.

I've started letting them go outside at different times and Hercules acts relieved to be in the house alone with me and the cats. She is also fine in the house alone, but the whole purpose of getting the second dobe was for Hercules to have one of his own kind to play with.

I'm just wondering if anyone has ever heard of any doberman's having bi-polar disorder because that's what this seems like to me. The vet suggested putting her on hormones for her incontenance. I'm afraid her mood swings will get worse if I do that, but at the same time, it's tempting to see if it will improve her behavior.

I know without someone seeing this happen and them seeing it come out of no where it's hard to diagnose. But like the perverbial kid with a cough and runny nose who is suddenly not showing any symptoms when you take them to the doctor, Chloe is a real sweety pie when we go to the vets or out in public. About the only thing she does when we are out that I don't like is break away form me and go after stray cats. She always comes back but she wants her way at those times. The rest of the time she stays pretty close to me and behaves. It's maddening and it's geting so I don't want to take her with me when I go anywhere because I can't control her. She wears a gental lead collar and a prong collar which I toggle together, as well as a shock collar when we go out. None of that works when she wants to do whatever she wants to do. I just want her to calm down. Could this be a form of anxiety?? Mary Lou.

[MLR]

I think I may have hit on something in reading about doberman health issues on this site. I wasn't aware that some dobermans are prone to thyroid problems. I have a book called Thyroid for Dummies written by a medical doctor which explains that 'thyroid storms' can mimic by-polar disorder in humans. I knew cats could get hyper thyroidism but didn't know about this with dogs. I'm now wondering if my female dobe has a thyroid problem and am going to have the vet check for this as soon as possible. If it had not been for this site I would never have thought to look into this a possiblity for her mood swings. They really are unprovoked as far as I can see and my male dobe has been raised in the same environment and doesn't have these problems. If she had been a rescue I might have thought something else was going on behavior wise, but like I said, I brought her home at 4 1/2 weeks. I know she could have used more time with her siblings but the breeder was moving up north shortly after their birth and since I already had one dobe here we both figured she would get the mentoring she needed from him. And she did. He was only 2 years old at the time and as everyone on this site has pointed out dobe's are puppies well into their golden years. Thank you so much for the wonderful articles and advice here on this site, Mary Lou.

[magtie]

that's interesting. Let us know what the vet says for sure

[jelly8bean]

Wholly Moley.. she is breaking a GL, prong combination? Plus a shock collar? That is some kind of drive. You really, really need to get her in control. You need to get to a trainer of some sort and start to work with them. Check with a couple of vet practices for recommendations on trainers, also I would say check the AKc website and find the nearest club to you and call them for trainer recommendations. Finally you can also check with your area rescue or shelter for trainer names. 4 weeks was way to young to have had proper socialization as well. This could be quite a problem girl, you are definitely going to have your hands full. If it is a medical issue then I hope it settles down with treatment.. but this sounds like more. Also, you can not establish dominance between the dogs, you are simply interfering. In nature the female is almost always the domininate, not the male. Please rethink and get some expert advice.

[MLR]

Jelly8bean,

I agree with 100% about her energy level. Part of the problem is that when I take the two of them out together they out weigh me by almost a hundred pounds. I weigh 118 and together they weigh 190 1/2 pounds. It's also that she's smart enough to know I can't really hold her back if she pulls her little quick back-up then lurch forward to get away. (Some things she's not so dumb about.) It was to my complete amazement when I finally figured out that my dogs allow me to walk them because they could take off at will any time they want too. I have tried to walk her independently by leaving Hercules home, which he misinterprets as me not wanting him and he is heart broken, and she does the same thing. I will try with my vet to look for a trainer sho is more familiar with doberman's. I'm hoping this is all just chemical imbalances which can be helped with meds.

I also agree about the female dominance thing. It's just that Hercules came first and he is bright and intuitive and I read him like a book. He is leary of her now, so I was only attempting to show her that he is first in the pecking order. Believe it or not this seems to be working to a certain extent. She no longer goes out the door first when they both go to the bathroom out back and she does wait for her morning treat until he has had his and she absolutely knows she is not allowed on the couch (partly because she's incontinent) but Hercules is. This seems to be registering with her. I also try to give her special attention when she is being good; like telling her 'good sit Chloe' or 'good lay down Chloe' when I am in the kitchen cooking and she, like my granddaughter, wants to be right under my elbows watching and tasting everything I'm cooking. And I do try to give them each a few minutes of alone time with me and just focus on them with good attention like petting them and telling each of them how much I love them. This seems also to work on her when we are alone in the house.

It's when we go out that the problems begin. She just spazzes out. Hercules used to do that when he was younger but has grown out of it to the extent that he will at least listen to me and fight the urge to lunge after a cat or pit bull if we are out walking. (For some reason neither of them like pits.) But Chloe, on the other hand, can't seem to control herself. A friend of mine once used the expression 'coon crazy' to discribe this behavior. He had raised coon hounds and he said sometimes they just go bonkers when they're on the trail of their prey and won't listen to anyone. Like they have a one track mind.

Again, I agree with you about looking for a trainer, I just don't want one who uses methods which will break her spirit. Dobes are such a noble breed and that's part of the reason I love them. They are thinkers. I've never had a dog in my life as smart as Hercules, or one who was more in tune with me. If he has eleven different colored balls in the other room I can tell him to go get his pink ball, for instance, and that's exactly the one he comes back with. I just wish Chloe had some of that. He can catch popcorn when I toss him one piece and she snaps her mouth shut before it gets to her. Like she's too eager. I guess the word I'm looking for with her behavior is she's obsessive/compulsive.

I also agree with you that she was way too young to leave her siblings but the breeder was moving and didn't want to take any puppies with her. As I had already been bottle feeding her because the mother had some problems with her milk, I really didn't think this would be a problem. But then again, most of my experience has been with kittens and this only serves to make them more loyal to me when I have fostered them when their mother has been killed or somethng. I can see now that this doesn't always work as well with dogs. But I truly believe that Chloe deserves a chance to be more productive. I just know that if I could come up with a 'job' for her to preform she would start to calm down more. She really is eager to please; she just doesn't seem to understand me all the time. And I know there are no problem dogs; only problem owners, so I'm taking all the blame here. I know somewhere deep down inside her there is a good loyal protector and right now she's just a misunderstood puppy in a very big body.

Thanks again for all your support.

Mary Lou

[jelly8bean]

You sound like a good and caring person.. and I understand your love for Chloe. But if your breeder was willing to give you her at that age.. then he was not a responsible breeder either - so you don't know where you are from a heredity point of view. Regardless of whining and crying .. walk them each separately so you have some level of control and can start daily interaction and training with them. You walk them for exercise of course, but you also walk to train. Commands like "walk with me", "heel" , "sit", "down" in more and more distracting situations. You should avoid the cats area till you have enough control to start into that level of distraction. When your dog goes into "drive" , like "prey" drive to chase the cats you can not alter that without some prior connection, training etc. I am not saying use a bad trainer or even one that you don't like.. but there are bound to be more than one around. I was trying to provide suggestions. There are several ways you can help them both by engaging their brains (which tires them out much more than exercise) with games. Try teaching "fetch", "take", "drop it", "leave it" etc. Have you tried any clicker training. There are tons of tricks and things you can teach them.. you have to start with each alone then move on to them together. How about some "find it" kind of game? I'm currently teaching my dobies to spin , twirl and bow in tandem right now. They can get over the top when playing chase outside and I am working on training recall to a whistle (I blow two short whistles and call and they come for treats).. I am constantly supervising so they can not get hurt. Eventually this will work itself out, but for the next 6 months or so I don't let them outside together without me there armed with whistle and treats. I have had 4 vet visits for things varying from hematoma (tree slam) to scratched eye (paw poke)- 2 for each dog, and I have to get them toned down. I have done a basic obedience with them together and am continuing with my young dobie to advance to agility (burn off some of that energy). You sound committed so I hope that you can solve this. A great book to help you is called the Culture Clash that will help you understand a lot, another good one is called Control Unleashed which can help with over reactive dogs. Regardless of the medical outcome , these are excellent references and will help you understand your dogs behavior.

[MLR]

Jelly8bean,

I appreciate your letting me vent and the good advice you're giving me. I wanted to explain why the three collars. Neither of my dobe's like the gentle lead collar. With only that one on they will pull themselves blind. They don't care. I was useing just the shock collar and a normal choke chain on Hercules for a long time. He has Von Wildebrands and I didn't want to use the prong collar because I thought it would bruise him or start some bleeding on the inside that I couldn't see. (He has it so bad, his white count is only 11, that I have a 45 minute window if he is ever hit by a car or bitten really bad by another dog to get him to a hospital 150 miles from here for plasma (if they have it at the time) or he will bleed out.) Then by the time Chloe came along and she got bigger the vet who never liked the idea of the shock collar said I could use the prong collar on both of them and that it wouldn't hurt Hercules like I thought. But I still need the shock collar because when we get to the playground, which is a people playground, and I let them off leash I need to make sure they will mind me. Here in Battle Creek the dog ordinance says all dogs must either be on a leash or under their owners control at all times when out in public. The shock collar satisfys that rule. It's just easier to use both collars on Hercules and the three on Chloe when we are going somewhere than to change them out when we get there. I don't always have to use the shock collar, they just need to know it's on and that I could and that pretty much takes care of that.

I like your tricks idea. I didn't know until I found this site that playing fetch or something like that took the place of exersize like walking. They both already come on command when they are outside. I use a dinner gong which hangs by the side door, like the ones you see on old western movies, to call them instead of yelling at them to come in. They learned to come to that because I was using it to get my grandchildren's attention if they were outside when Hercules was little. He quite naturally came to the side door when they did. And Chloe learned that one from following his lead even when the kids aren't here. I have real close neighbors and it's bad enough that they have to put up with the dogs barking outside let alone adding my yelling for the dogs to all that noise. They also sit on voice command and lay down and stay. And they read hand signals for those three things, too, and will also come when I crook my finger and motion for them to come to me that way. When they are on their leashes they also know how to back up, you'd be surprised how many times that one comes in handy, and left and right turn (my last dog went blind shortly before she died and I didn't want to have these two running into car bumpers like she did at the end so I taught them these turns). And Hercules knows what search means if I take him to one of my apartments when they are vacant and I suspect someone might have broken in; he taught himself that from watching Animal Planet I think, because I never taught him this one. Chloe will figure things out on her own sometimes, too. Like one time I tossed Hercules rubber toy snake into their wading pool because he kept slobbering on it and dropping it in the dirt and laying it in my lap. Hercules is afraid of water so he kept coming to me and barking and going back to the pool but he wouldn't go in to get the snake himself. Chloe sized up this situation all on her own and after three attempts at holding her breath she nosed down into the pool from the sidelines and got Hercules's snake and brought it to him. I thought that was so special I tried it several more times because I wanted to see if it was just a one time fluke or if she really knew what she was doing and she never missed a beat the next three times I tossed Hercules's snake into the pool. She nosed right in after it each time and brought it over to him.

This is why it makes no sense when her mood changes and she goes after him in attack mode. I know she cares about Hercules a lot.

So I think there's hope for her if I can just find the right trainer or if it turns out that she needs hormones or thyroid medicine. Like I said, the problem is the owner I think, not the dog. I just recently got on the internet for the first time in my life and didn't have access to all the things I do now so maybe I'll be better able to find the right trainer now. Mary Lou

[jelly8bean]

Learning tricks doesn't actually take the place of exercise walking, but it can help make your dog more attentive to you. If you are trick training then they will look at you for cues all the time. And that helps when you are walking and asking for other behaviors. Good luck with your vet visit...