Who do you like?

[Kimbertalkls]

Okay. I thought rather than being negative, let's post a breeder that you have seen and like. It does not have to be someone you have dealt with. It also does not have to be a show breeder. Please say why you like the breeder too. This may help the puppy shoppers. They can go down the list and see recommended names. Anne

[VonDoom]

It has never boiled down to a single breeder or how they work to better the breed. For me it boils down to the indivudual dogs and matings. For example in the US. I really like Tsenturian Sant Kreal. Unfortunatly he isnt available for stud. B4 he was purchased by his current owners. I had picked my bitch with the intentions of mating the two. Since that is no longer possable i am looking at Phantom Di Altobello. for an early 2010 breeding. So i could care less who the breeder is as long as the dog fits what im looking for as a breeder or pet owner. But i know thats not the popular sentiment. I want what works for me and frankly breeder support isnt as important to me as it may be for others.

Personally i believe it is in my best intrest to judge the dogs. There are many things i need when choosing the correct stud. complete health testing is one of those. But many good stud dogs are bought and sold all the time. One breeder may not do testing but as long as a previous breeder/owner did. What do i care if the current owner tests, as long as the dog has been tested and passed and i like him. Ill make contact with this owners.

[triplecminis]

I did allot of research before I purchased my two babies... over and over again I was drawn to the beauty of the Kimbertal pups.... I have two of them and I would not hesitate to buy another.... My two pups are so smart and loving... they are 8 months old now and training has been moving along so fast that I have already taught them to watch thier treat until I say it is ok... then they can have it...

[DynamicDuo]

I too like Kimbertal Dobermans. I spent a lot of time and did research looking at pups and talking to people before making the Kimbertal choice. I even tried the rescue route to get a Dobie, but was quickly denied due to the having kids, another older dog, and a cat. I love my Doberman dogs, they are great with kids, other pets, and are really smart and beautiful!
It really pays to go and see different Dobermans so that you can get an idea of what you want in your dog.
I like Kimbertal too because they are available everyday to answer your questions and give advice. Also, you can see the males on site, the pups are socialized early, and you can interact with the pups to see which one best fits your idea of a Doberman.

[kenc18901]

I to have a Kimbertal pup. She is only 16 weeks and is in fine health and is VERY energenic. I live close to Kimbetals and they are available for any of my questions. My pup gets her ears taped and I have taken her back there to have them taped and I am always welcomed

[apollo]

We got Apollo from a private breeder and they were 1 1/2 hrs away in connecticut we sat with them for 3 hrs through what seemed like an interview they wanted to make sure we understood everything about dobes, For someone to take that much time to get to know you really cares about there dogs. we are still in contact with them they are great people.

[Big Dogs]

Having owned dobes and trained them for 20+ years I can say I would recommend and have Kimbertal in a heartbeat. We actually trained two kimbertal pups for people before we bought one ourselves and will go back. As our location is southwestern pa kimbertal is more convenient for us in our travels. What we like about kimbertal was there time that they spent with us and viewing there facility. Kimbertal both spent time with us and left us on our own and no appointment was needed. They listened to what we were looking for and made recommendations based upon that there guarantee is great and Frank spent hours with us. We visited them twice and purchased the pup on the 3 visit. Told him how we wanted the ears cropped not a show crop as our dogs are working dogs and picked him up on the fourth visit. You just cant go wrong there and there kennel is the cleanest I have ever seen.

[Big Dogs]

sorry about posting again just wondered Andromeda Dobermans are you a breeder? And if you are what is it you are breeding for? Show, working or all the above. I noticed one of the studs you mentioned Sant Kreal Tsentrian was owned by kimbertal know. Were you going to buy and import him? Before kimbertal purchased him ? If so I would like to know how that process works since I will be going over to Germany next year and plan to visit some of the kennels in Yugoslavia. I have contacted some of the kennels already about visiting them.

[Dobs4ever]

Kimbertal is a long standing kennel and in the past they were a premier kennel. The original owner Bob Yarnell bought CH dogs from top breeders and then used them to produce his litters. Kimbertal itself did not do a lot if any showing or training. When the American breeders found out that he was buying top retired show dogs for his stock they quit selling to him and so he had to go to Europe. Now most of Kimbertal stuff is Euro breeding.

But you will find that they have many loyal families out there.

[tidibole]

Kimbertal is a long standing kennel and in the past they were a premier kennel. The original owner Bob Yarnell bought CH dogs from top breeders and then used them to produce his litters. Kimbertal itself did not do a lot if any showing or training. When the American breeders found out that he was buying top retired show dogs for his stock they quit selling to him and so he had to go to Europe. Now most of Kimbertal stuff is Euro breeding.

But you will find that they have many loyal families out there.

You are absolutely correct. I purchased my first dobe in 1976 from a breeder in Conn, Ch sired, etc, shown on the West coast and even at that time Kimbertal still had a few GOOD dogs that were campaigned in not only Breed but also obedience. Currently they are on the Euro track, importing Int'lCh and then breeding and selling these dogs for what one might consider astonomical prices as to what is also available from American breeders. I have not seen any of the dogs imported by Kimbertal in any ring or venue. Many newbies (and I do not mean that as negative, we all were at one time) are attracted to the site for exactly the reasons mentioned in other posts. I also think that they are more prone to sell without too many questions of the perspective owner unlike may American breeders. If you look at their Website, you will see many dogs from the 60's and 70's that were actively exhibited but that is not so anymore. you have to determine what you are expecting from the puppy you purchase? do you want to show conformation? then I don't think Kimbertal is right for you, Obedience? as Dobs4ever can attest, the Euro dogs excel in working ability and attitude but they may not always suitable for the pet or couch potatoe that some want...I have both an American/Argentinian and yes even Dutch bred and a Euro dog grand sired by a Kimbertal imported male. There is a definite difference in attitude and working ability. would I ever buy a dog from Kimbertal? I have to honestly say NO..do I love my boy, I can honestly say YES...But I have no expectations other then a possible obedience title..He is not of the quality for the AKC ring with a definite Euro look! I also BELIEVE that Yarnall started the ACA registration (American Canine Association)

[Dobs4ever]

Really! Thank you for that info I had never heard who started the ACA registration but it does not surprise me. Yarnell was a master promoter and built a solid reputation until he sold the kennel I think in the late 80's or early 90's. Then it went downhill. I had a girl bring a Kimbertal bitch to me for training and it had a bad leg at 5 months and had absolutely no drives, food, toy nothing could get the dog excited to do anything. Thank goodness she took my advise and neutered it.

[Big Dogs]

I agree that you do not see kimbertal dogs being campaigned in the show ring, but I also do not like what I see in the show ring. Just do not like the head or the size. I do not show dogs but I do train dogs and have run across several kimbertal dogs and own two my self and have owned a House of Hoytt dog several years ago (do not like there head now) but I'm sure there just as trainable as before. The dogs that I deal with are working dogs and these dogs have the drive to work which I like and my clients seem to like while still being stable. Most of the Euro dogs from what I am seeing would never place here in America due to size and look. Again its all in what you are looking for and want strictly my opinion. I love a working class dog to look the part and have the ability to do it. I believe some American breeders are breeding strictly for looks so that they can post how great there dogs are in the show ring to achieve the prices they are asking for with little or no concern for workability. Am I pro kimbertal yes, but I deal with working dogs mostly and they are workable and mentally sound. I can not say that about some of the other dogs I have dealt with form other breeders just as popular with ring credentials. Again only looking at it from a working dog stand point. I believe kimbertal is still owned by Bob's wife Neda at least thats who is signing the registration papers. Just kind of wondered what was wrong with the dobes leg at five months old could have been covered under the guarantee of course that would have been voided if she neutered it before being 12 months old.

[Dobs4ever]

It would be very hard today to show a Kimbertal dog as you would unfortunately not get a good response from the show crowd. It would drive them nuts!

[Big Dogs]

I agree, just checked out your web site nice looking dogs I love the look of gunner and the fact that he is a worker just makes me like him even more.

[tidibole]

I agree that you do not see kimbertal dogs being campaigned in the show ring, but I also do not like what I see in the show ring. Just do not like the head or the size. I do not show dogs but I do train dogs and have run across several kimbertal dogs and own two my self and have owned a House of Hoytt dog several years ago (do not like there head now) but I'm sure there just as trainable as before. The dogs that I deal with are working dogs and these dogs have the drive to work which I like and my clients seem to like while still being stable. Most of the Euro dogs from what I am seeing would never place here in America due to size and look. Again its all in what you are looking for and want strictly my opinion. I love a working class dog to look the part and have the ability to do it. I believe some American breeders are breeding strictly for looks so that they can post how great there dogs are in the show ring to achieve the prices they are asking for with little or no concern for workability. Am I pro kimbertal yes, but I deal with working dogs mostly and they are workable and mentally sound. I can not say that about some of the other dogs I have dealt with form other breeders just as popular with ring credentials. Again only looking at it from a working dog stand point.You may be right but I honestly feel that the head of the doberman is the least of the problem of the breed. I too am a head hunter with my last male being a grandson of Ch Von Merlis Lets Make a Deal and if ever a dog had a headpiece it was him. However, there are far many more issues that the current dobe has then head, temperemnt, being the top of my agenda. I do not feel that Kimbertal and House of Hoytt have the best interest of the breed in mind when breeding and selling. I am sure that this will be open to debate but I personally feel that this is not an avenue to pursue. I appreciate the breeders who make an honest effort to bridge the ever so large gap in the working vs. show Dobe...I believe a doberman should be beautiful as to the AKC standard but also have the woking ability that it was bred for. MANY "show" dogs do not have both...I have seen the "show dog" drop to the ground when a loud noise has frightened them with little to no ability of recouping their composure. .Many working dogs do not have the conformation to be valued in the AKC ring...If you look at the past dobes, as Dictator, although originated from Euro lines, there was a goal in mind. It was not the random breeding of one line or another but the acculation of the best of both worls. Tess Hensler's vom Ahrtal kennels, Peggy Adamson and Damasyn more recenty Icon of breeder such as Mary Rogers and such have made the effort to consistently breed quality dogs from superior international quality dogs. SunHawk, Mary Hartman, Only One, and the list goes on and on!!!!They have taken the chance and evaluated the best to the best. Many of these dogs have a valuable part to play in the continued quality of the dog but MOST EURO lines are not quality to base a entire breeding program on. Lex Luther was a beautiful dog, temperemntt? questionable, open to discussion but I feel a valued contributer to the breed. Dexter von Franchenhorst is in the same category. Many of todays fanciers do not know the true history of the breed nor of the particpating breeders and dogs that have made the DOBE what it is today...

[Dobs4ever]

Thank you Big Dog. Love our name!! Gunner hs been one awesome dog to train and work with. Unfortunately due to two injuries I chose not to complete his Schutzhund and take a chance on him getting hurt further. I am working on the very thing that you talk about blending the Euro temperament and working drives but with a little better conformation. It is not easy. Shrock is coming on and I am working him both as showing and hopefully Schutzhund. He is doing well up to this point but he is still a very young dog. He is showing great potential at tracking and looking good so far on the PP. Time will tell and I am not going to push him. I want to finish his AKC ch first and he is well on his way to entering the obedience ring.

I have seen both extremes in the ring which concern me - yes there are the snipey heads and thin greyhound looking bodies and then there is the other extreme over angulated with very overdone fronts. This does not even come close to addressing the temperament problem. I tell folks working Gunner is like driving a Cadilliac compared to a Chevy as far as working drives go. Now Shrock is showing me the same work ethic so far. Always up for anything. So hoping he will bring more conformation while keeping strong work ethics.

But to me and this is me personally I am not trying to speak for anyone else the most beautiful dobe in the world that can't do the job he was bred for is not a correct Doberman and the toughest working dog that is butt ugly is not correct either. I so hope we don't totally go the way of the GS because it is almost like 2 breeds - the conformation of the show GS would not hold up for working and the working GS could not make it in the conformation ring. You have to have a total package for the dog to hold up.

[tidibole]

Thank you Big Dog. Love our name!! Gunner hs been one awesome dog to train and work with. Unfortunately due to two injuries I chose not to complete his Schutzhund and take a chance on him getting hurt further. I am working on the very thing that you talk about blending the Euro temperament and working drives but with a little better conformation. It is not easy. Shrock is coming on and I am working him both as showing and hopefully Schutzhund. He is doing well up to this point but he is still a very young dog. He is showing great potential at tracking and looking good so far on the PP. Time will tell and I am not going to push him. I want to finish his AKC ch first and he is well on his way to entering the obedience ring.

I have seen both extremes in the ring which concern me - yes there are the snipey heads and thin greyhound looking bodies and then there is the other extreme over angulated with very overdone fronts. This does not even come close to addressing the temperament problem. I tell folks working Gunner is like driving a Cadilliac compared to a Chevy as far as working drives go. Now Shrock is showing me the same work ethic so far. Always up for anything. So hoping he will bring more conformation while keeping strong work ethics.

But to me and this is me personally I am not trying to speak for anyone else the most beautiful dobe in the world that can't do the job he was bred for is not a correct Doberman and the toughest working dog that is butt ugly is not correct either. I so hope we don't totally go the way of the GS because it is almost like 2 breeds - the conformation of the show GS would not hold up for working and the working GS could not make it in the conformation ring. You have to have a total package for the dog to hold up.
Thank you!!!!!

[jelly8bean]

I also hope that the addition of working sport titles will start turning the tide for a lovely combination of the confirmation and working traits that makes the breed the best! Good luck to those who are working on this!

[Dobs4ever]

So correct Tidibole and I think we are all saying the same thing. I know from Big Dogs post he does not like the temperament or the conformation and I would have to agree with you both. A working breed should be able to do the job it was bred for. Just look at the % of dogs that pass the WAE and this is a basic entry level temperament test. If some of the working folks did not go through occassionally I am not sure that they would have more than a 20% pass ratio and believe me I watch those numbers. And that has nothing to say about the breeders who do not even try it, or the fail percentage would be much greater. Temperament should be a main focus with health being next. I say this because until we have DNA test we are guessing in the dark on this issue.

You may be right but I honestly feel that the head of the doberman is the least of the problem of the breed. I too am a head hunter with my last male being a grandson of Ch Von Merlis Lets Make a Deal and if ever a dog had a headpiece it was him. However, there are far many more issues that the current dobe has then head, temperemnt, being the top of my agenda. I do not feel that Kimbertal and House of Hoytt have the best interest of the breed in mind when breeding and selling. I am sure that this will be open to debate but I personally feel that this is not an avenue to pursue. I appreciate the breeders who make an honest effort to bridge the ever so large gap in the working vs. show Dobe...I believe a doberman should be beautiful as to the AKC standard but also have the woking ability that it was bred for. MANY "show" dogs do not have both...I have seen the "show dog" drop to the ground when a loud noise has frightened them with little to no ability of recouping their composure. .Many working dogs do not have the conformation to be valued in the AKC ring...If you look at the past dobes, as Dictator, although originated from Euro lines, there was a goal in mind. It was not the random breeding of one line or another but the acculation of the best of both worls. Tess Hensler's vom Ahrtal kennels, Peggy Adamson and Damasyn more recenty Icon of breeder such as Mary Rogers and such have made the effort to consistently breed quality dogs from superior international quality dogs. SunHawk, Mary Hartman, Only One, and the list goes on and on!!!!They have taken the chance and evaluated the best to the best. Many of these dogs have a valuable part to play in the continued quality of the dog but MOST EURO lines are not quality to base a entire breeding program on. Lex Luther was a beautiful dog, temperemntt? questionable, open to discussion but I feel a valued contributer to the breed. Dexter von Franchenhorst is in the same category. Many of todays fanciers do not know the true history of the breed nor of the particpating breeders and dogs that have made the DOBE what it is today...

[Big Dogs]

I agree with you all I hope the addition of the working titles helps bring the working dog aspect back to the breed. I also agree that there seems to be a division between the show dog and the working dog, this is where some of the truly competent breeders are trying to combine the two back together which I think we are all in agreement is what the dobe truly is. Watching a working Dobe when I was ten is what made me love the breed and the driving force behind me training dogs. It's refreshing to read and hear so many knowledgeable opinions from people on this forum.

[tidibole]

Okay. I thought rather than being negative, let's post a breeder that you have seen and like. It does not have to be someone you have dealt with. It also does not have to be a show breeder. Please say why you like the breeder too. This may help the puppy shoppers. They can go down the list and see recommended names. AnneI just had the opportunity to view your website and see that you are revamping? Just had a few questions that for whatever reason did not appear or I could not navigate to find. You have a FREE BREEDER pups program where the owner gives you the entire litter at SEVEN weeks? I have always heard that is too young? Also the puppy guarantee contract is dated 1978? 31 year old contract! and under that contract is a section for "show quality" dogs must be finished by 2 1/2? Or did I misunderstand. I know most males in most lines do not MATURE until 3 and sometimes 4 yrs..I have also been told that the younger to mature the easier for them to fall apart as they age...And foremost I did not see any health testing? Is this due to the fact that you have Euro dogs? and supposedly they do not have the same health issues as American dogs? l I know the American counterparts are generally health tested if originated from reputable, conscientious breeders?

[Big Dogs]

tidibole I was on another forum a couple of days ago and saw something I really really didn't like and I hope it doesn't start here. Which I would like to say Dobes4ever I saw you on there and can honestly say you took the high road and Like you even more than I did before for doing so! I saw two complete threads of people bashing a particular breeder and the breeder trying to defend there self. What a complete waste of time and energy pointing fingers and then it became personal. Here is my comment on the whole thing and my theory of most of the problems that I come across training and dealing with the public every day. Take RESPONSIBILITY for your OWN actions we have a whole society of people that always point the finger at some one else saying it's there fault and not there's. This forum and this question have always been since I have been here very informative and respectful. But if this is leading where I think you are trying to take it I for one will not participate in it! As my father always told me running your mouth can sometimes make you look very foolish. I'f I am in correct if my assumption please forgive me tidibole as my father also said assuming can some times make you look like an, well you get the Idea.

[tidibole]

tidibole I was on another forum a couple of days ago and saw something I really really didn't like and I hope it doesn't start here. Which I would like to say Dobes4ever I saw you on there and can honestly say you took the high road and Like you even more than I did before for doing so! I saw two complete threads of people bashing a particular breeder and the breeder trying to defend there self. What a complete waste of time and energy pointing fingers and then it became personal. Here is my comment on the whole thing and my theory of most of the problems that I come across training and dealing with the public every day. Take RESPONSIBILITY for your OWN actions we have a whole society of people that always point the finger at some one else saying it's there fault and not there's. This forum and this question have always been since I have been here very informative and respectful. But if this is leading where I think you are trying to take it I for one will not participate in it!Big Dogs...Just questions that do not appear on their site that every post regarding breeding validates in asking! And let me assure you and anyone else that may consider this a prelude to other forums, DEFINITELY not the intention!!!!

[jelly8bean]

Let's all stay on the high road here and take the old... if you don't have anything good to say technique. Redirection please.

[Rhiannon]

I would like to please ask that this site not end up like the vicious other site that is supposedly closing down as of midnight May 1st. I am certain that a lot of the members of the other site will transfer here to continue their work. I would like to see everyone keep in mind one very important thing. This is a public forum and I see absolutely no reason to publically humiliate breeders on this site because of other people's opinions. I have seen many breeders slashed to pieces and hope and pray that Doberman Hub does not end up the same way. We all need to keep in mind that there are states writing legistation concerning those types of situations. So please let's keep Doberman Hub the wonderful learning tool it currently is. I would hope that whenever the moderators see a thread going in that direction that it would be closed and deleted.

[magtie]

We're open to discussion here as long as it doesn't turn into a battle. I think we all express our opinions and still be civil :)

[Rhiannon]

Thank you Magtie. I really do like this site and believe that we can educate people far better without slinging mud and ruining people's reputations. I really appreciate your honest answer.

[Big Dogs]

This has all been worked out there really is no need to continue with this.

[Dobs4ever]

I too hope we can stay on the high road, but I do think asking questions and pointing out definite problems is better than making eveyrone goody goody and misleading new people who need some education so they do not get themselves into a bad situation.

I struggle with this and hope that by asking pertinent questions we can point out things that are important to our breed and then let each individual make their own decision. I can't condone wrong regardless of the concequences. I want everyone to learn and for each and every one of us to get better as no one is perfect. Breeders have a far heavier responsiblity than any other member and must continue to work on improvement for our breed, health issues, BSL way more than just breeding a litter to provide affordable puppies. They are affordable becasue none of the important things have been done. I studied this breed for 2 years and attended shows observing before I ever bought my first Dobe.

I still struggle with how to improve and continue to get better for my dogs, my families and the future of this magnificant breed. It is my responsibiity, it is my quest, it is my driving force. I love this breed passionately and for me there is not another breed that can compare. I must be willing to take cirticism as well as give constructive criticism. If I can't take the heat then I need to get out of the kitchen. You can't learn if you are not open to criticism.

[DRLittlechickbigdiesel]

does anyone have any other recommendations? im looking to get started in agility, obedience, and conformation and would like a few more breeders names, i love kimbertal but would like other options too. im not even sure if i can afford a pup from kimbertal even though i already see one i want badly. :( thats how the cookie crumbles i guess

[tidibole]

I certainly hope this does not turn into a debate. BUT, I have Dobes that I have paid as little as $45.00 from a shelter, cropped, docked and awesome. Of course this did not include altering, etc. I acquired an ILP number on him and then his CGC, TDI. Wonderful dog until the day he died. I have a beautifully bred dog that was anything but cheap and also equally as awesome. Bottom line, decide what you want, your intentions, ie..conformation,(mosy Kimbertal dogs are not suited for that venue)y well than that is an etirely different story, agility, obedience? you don't need all of the hoobla, just a good ol' dog, what you can afford to pay and do the best with what you have to work with. Health testing?, of course it is important, but again, my rescue didn't have any! do you want to breed? and then you have ask yourself why? There are many questions, and once you have come to aconslusion, all else will fall into place. Good Luck!!!

[Big Dogs]

As others have said there are many things to consider when looking at dogs and many places to acquire them. Not knowing your price range, and experience here are some things to consider. To compete in agility or obedience takes a commitment of time that there is no short cut to. Confirmation doesn't take nearly the time but you have to have a dog that is built correctly and conforms to the standard. A dog from a breeder helps to eliminate many of the unknowns and usually comes with some type of guarantee are there prices higher than what you see in the paper yes, but consider this there ears are usually cropped there tails docked, dew claws removed health tested wormed and all of there shots to that point along with the ability to see the parents on site not just the mother! Breeders help to eliminate many of the unknowns are there great dogs at the rescue and in the paper yes but I would advise anyone take a Certified trainer with you to help you choose if you go to a shelter,rescue or add in the paper it might be the best money you ever spent! Do not make a purchase from any breeder from a picture alone try to visit the breeder and look at the operation and all of there dogs you will get a feeling be it good or bad from just being there. Do your research and ask questions just remember where ever you get your dog from that it is a long term commitment.

[jelly8bean]

Decide how much time and effort you think you will put in. As well as any goals you may have. my Indigo is a shelter dog, a blue female at 18 months. I have her PAL number and now that she is back working we hope to move to get our CGC this summer and move on to Obedience and agility for the fall. I love her to bits, she is a perfect fit into my house.

Confirmation would need a lot more $ and research work upfront. First, read the standard and go to some shows. This will help you figure out if it is for you, plus you will start to see who wins and perhaps make some connections.

[tidibole]

I have always wondered about the guarantees. Moreso than not it means return of the dog..Would anyone want to return their pet if not what expected. I couldn't. Is there a difference perhaps refunded if the dog dosen't meet the expectations as represented? Guarantees are definately something that should be researched and TOTALLY explained and in more cases than not can become invalid, i.e, incorrect diet, incorrect supplements, incorrect playing, and the list goes on. Above all, it is imperativbe to realize that the conformation ring is not easier or faster than obedience. It is necessary not only to encourage a winning attitude as well as the refrained elegance of a well trained dog. As in any venue, attitude of both the handler and dog are imperative to success. But moreso in conformation. Sometimes there is a VERY THIN line between pet and show...Although, I attempt to train in both, conformation and obedience, I truly do not believe one is easier than another. Just requires different techniques but ultimately both require dedication, knowledge and yes, even politics..

[Dobs4ever]

I personally want a breeder who actually works their own dogs and titles their own dogs. Then you know the ins and outs of that particular dogs tmeperament. Anyone can buy a dog already titled and that is how pet owners get themsleves into trouble later.

[tidibole]

I personally want a breeder who actually works their own dogs and titles their own dogs. Then you know the ins and outs of that particular dogs tmeperament. Anyone can buy a dog already titled and that is how pet owners get themsleves into trouble later.

Sometimes people are just interested in good pets. Titling would be entirely dependent on what the venue..the avarage person looking for a pet or even an agility dog, I don't think is suited to go to a breeder who produces Euro dogs with generally the prey drive that can be a problem for many rather than an attribute. Many just want a nice dog that is eventually altered and a couch potatoe...I think you know how I feel about breeding as well as temperemnt but I think the primary issue is placing the correct dog with the correct temperment and background to the right individual. As has been discussed in previous thread, the problem is going to arise if not all ready, all of the Euro dogs bred by inexpereinced breeders, placed in homes with little to no thought regarding compatibilty. Those will be the new wave of rescue dog. My Max had prey drive that was just not pleasant, I learned to live with it. Since he was a rescue dog directly from a shelter, without the benefit of any temperemnt testing, had he gone perhaps to anyone else, there could have been horrible results. Health testing for what is NECESSARY is important.

[Big Dogs]

I personally believe when you get a rescue dog or a dog from a shelter you need to be prepared for potential problems. I have dealt with many different issues for people and to be honest the dog being Euro or American had very little to do with the dogs issues. What did contribute to the dogs issues more than not was how they were kept and how they were treated. I personally believe there is more damage being done to the breed by back yard breeders than anything else. The real issue in my opinion and I'm sure some people will think differently is people getting dogs that they think are going to be perfect with out any effort on there part! When someone comes to me to look at a dog I ask why this particular breed, what are you expecting from the dog, did you research the breed and the breeder if there getting one from the breeder and are you prepared to spend the time it takes to train the dog. Temperament testing is a good tool but is only a tool. I have done testing for the local shelter for a long time and I always say the same thing the dog still has to be trained or there is still the potential for problems. As Americans in this country we tend to be on the spoiled side and want everything now which sometimes creates problems. I personally and only personally believe in my opinion that some Euro dogs do have higher prey drives which can be a problem when left unchecked and matched to the wrong owner tidibole is right. On the other side of the coin a skittish unsure American dobe can be just as problematic. I guess in the end I do not believe one line as a whole is problematic are there differences yes there can be but not always. Breeders testing and trainers are there to help potential owners to make the best choice possible for there needs, but in the very end the owner has to take realize the commitment and see through with that commitment to have the dog he envisioned. You have to excuse me I think I was rambling!

[tidibole]

I purchased a dog, red male dobe, from an ad in the local newspaper for a whooping $200.00, no inoculations, no health guarantee, AKC reg'd back to Damaysn. Had him cropped for $75.00 with a show crop. Beautiful dog with an excellent temperment. I remember going to the seller and as I approached the sire, he all but ripped my head off...hmmm, perhaps that should have been a red flag? I picked one of two males because he went to my purse and preceeded to drag out my check book!! Quite the reason to make a decision. He lived until 10 and then I lost him to Cardio. You are right BDogs, we expect too much....that is why more than ever proper placement is imperative I have never expected too much and as a result all of my dogs have been wonderful advocates of the breed.

[Big Dogs]

A pick pocket, our oldest dobe we picked up from an add in the paper and came galloping at us after the owner let the herd in the house. Of course they had to make a all out lap around the house and ours grabbed my wife's pants until she picked him up and then he put his head on her shoulder funny how they pick you and then manipulate you! LOL . He's 11 now and still the apple of our eyes.

[Dobs4ever]

Cute story Big Dogs. I also think you can just be buying problems with a rescue not to mention unknown health issues. I do thank God however that there are people who have hearts big enough to take these on. Not everything is for everyone and that is what keeps the world going round. I do think in the next 5 years we will see bigger problems in rescue dogs as more unknowledgeable breeders are jumping on the Euro breeding and they have not ever trained a dog themselves so do not understand the drives. All puppies are SWEET. jAll puppies are precious. At about 18 months they start to mature and that is when I see big problems arising and pet owners who are not knowledgable enough and breeders who don't know how to help them will all be in big trouble and then I truly feel sorry for the rescue community.

Thats why I feel a person is better off working with a breeder who has taken the time and sweat to train and title their own dogs first. They are much more likely to be able to properly evelaute temperament, drives, etc and in turn help their families. I would know want a breeder who has a reputation for thier dogs ending up in rescue.

[Bob J]

I mentioned on another thread that I invetigated several breeders before puchasing my wonderful pup Sabbath. There was a person from Michigan, AndromedaDobermans I believe, looking for a stud. I posted the link to Trick Dream and I got to meet this dog and he was absolutely beautiful with an excellent temperment. He's a European bred dobe from Germany. The pups were indoors, hand raised and socialized by his entire family. Most of you have been to the link but I wanted to post it for the aforementioned person.

http://www.dobermanacres.com/page2.html.

I can only recommend this breeder based on my extremely limited knowledge of breeders.
I liked what I saw and how he cared for his dogs compared to the other breeders I visited.

[Dobs4ever]

Bob - I just visited the web site and would share some info with you. I do like the looks of Trick Dream- not a bad looking fella - Love your puppy he should be great although I did not see any health testing on the site one red flad and this was my second red flag and I am posting from the dreamacres web site -

EAR CROPPING

Dobermans are born with floppy ears, to get them pricked up is an inexpensive surgery that the owner needs to tend to until the ears can stand up on their own. Ears being cropped is a personal decision, and the Breeder is not responsible for any problems that may occur to your puppie’s ears if Buyer chooses to have this surgery performed on puppy.

Common sicknesses: hair loss
Life expectancy: up to 14 years


As stated above they take no responsiblity for ears - either cropping or that they will stand - It is a cropped and docked breed. No reputable breeder would like a puppy go out representating them without ears done by someone who knows how to do them. This breeder takes no responsiblity - probably doesn't even know it is a cropped and docked breed. 3rd red flag probably does not know how to properly maintain them so that they stand correctly and it is not necesary an inexpensive surgery depending on where you live.

4th red flag - Life expectancy of a Doberman is 9.4 years not 14 - that is why DPCA had a longevity program - for any Doberman that makes it to 10 that is considered a mile stone.

5th red flag - and this is a biggie - common illness - HAIR LOSS - give me a break - What about Thyroid, Vwd, DCM, CAH, Bloat, Cancer?????????

Don't feel bad. This is how many people get tricked - and probably pay way more than they should for a dog from someone who does not really know about his breed.

Bob please understand I do not post this to make you feel bad at all most people would be misled by this web site. I posted to try to help educate those who might not know this stuff. But I do feel as a breeder it is your RESPONSIBILTY To know this stuff and not mislead the public. If I can help you with ear posting let me know and I will be happy if you had your puppies ears done.

[Bob J]

I don't feel bad at all by your comments. I can only go by what I saw and experienced compared to the other breeders that I visited. As for longevity, my last dobe I had in high school lived to be almost 16 yrs. old and we got him from family friends that just decided to breed their 2 dobes. He cost me a wopping 50 bucks. I agree on your points and the fact that I was uneducated and ignorant as to what I should have been looking for in a breeder. I do however feel confident that I got a quality dog at a reasonable price of $300 compared to $1500-$2000 that some of the other breeders were asking. I got to interact with Trick and play with him. I also got to spend some time with the female. Their temperments were astounding and I was sold. I have seen quite a few dobes at the other breeders and Trick is just absolutely impressive. He's a Euro dobe and it's obvious he is bigger boned and larger (112 lbs.) than the other dobes I saw. I wanted a good pet and home protector. I don't feel that I was tricked in any way. He was very forthcoming with me and said he would take the dog back any time for any reason. He has given me 3 follow up calls already to see how the pup and I were doing. He actually does care about his dogs and where they go. Looking back on my purchase and knowing a lot more from reading information from people and breeders on this site, I still would have purchased Sabbath from this guy.

[Dobs4ever]

Bob - and there is nothing wrong in that. Trick did have an impressive pedigree and was a nice looking boy. Some of the best dogs I ever had when I was a kid were pound dogs. So I was truly not trying to knock anything just pointing out for educational purposes what I saw and what it told me. I would think that they are planning on staying around since they took the time to develop such a beautiful web site.

I did not see the pedigree on the female so can't speak to that but there are no guarantees in Dobermans as far as health goes - I just prefer to stack the deck in my favor by health testing. The reason the life expectancy is 9.4 yars is that some die much earlier and some live much longer. We all hope regardless of where we get them or what we pay that we get lucky and believe me there is some luck involved.

So be sure to keep us updated with pictures and Doberboy stories. I would say if you got him for $300 you got a bargain regardless.

[Bob J]

I hope I didn't come accross as defensive in my post. I just wanted to express what I saw and my experiences when looking for a dobe. Sabbath just turned 5 mo. old Sunday.
He got his last round of shots for the year Saturday and he weighed 70.6 lbs. I need to take a few pictures of him and post them. He's getting to be quite the handsome little devil. Though not so little anymore.
I do want to thank you for all the good advice that you give on this site. Nothing replaces experience.

On a side note, he offered the name of the vet that crops his dogs ears but that is on the other side of my state so I used a local vet. Sabbath's ears turned out awesome.

[tidibole]

I don't feel bad at all by your comments. I can only go by what I saw and experienced compared to the other breeders that I visited. As for longevity, my last dobe I had in high school lived to be almost 16 yrs. old and we got him from family friends that just decided to breed their 2 dobes. He cost me a wopping 50 bucks. I agree on your points and the fact that I was uneducated and ignorant as to what I should have been looking for in a breeder. I do however feel confident that I got a quality dog at a reasonable price of $300 compared to $1500-$2000 that some of the other breeders were asking. I got to interact with Trick and play with him. I also got to spend some time with the female. Their temperments were astounding and I was sold. I have seen quite a few dobes at the other breeders and Trick is just absolutely impressive. He's a Euro dobe and it's obvious he is bigger boned and larger (112 lbs.) than the other dobes I saw. I wanted a good pet and home protector. I don't feel that I was tricked in any way. He was very forthcoming with me and said he would take the dog back any time for any reason. He has given me 3 follow up calls already to see how the pup and I were doing. He actually does care about his dogs and where they go. Looking back on my purchase and knowing a lot more from reading information from people and breeders on this site, I still would have purchased Sabbath from this guy.You are apparently aware that DOBES are generally not cheap and truthfully $2000.00 is not horribly expnesive...So the simple fact that you paid $300.00 should have been the first indciation to make you question what you are buying. The dog you purchased for $50.00 while in HS, how long ago? Many things have changed since then, temperment, health issues and even worse breders who shouldn't be called breeders. It dosen't take a brain surgeon to know if a bitch is in heat she'll be bred if the male is there. It does however require a knowledgeable person to ascertain the results of such a breeding or even if it should have happened to begin. Health testing isn't the all to the end but it is a start.. I paid $200.00 for a lovely 6 week old and lost him at 10 due to Cardio, all dogs die of something, cardio at 10 is doable with me..At 4...thats another issue....Another at 9 to bone cancer, again a resuce with NO health testing..And neither of those dogs had any health testing. I also own a 13 year old female Crytonite grandaughter and yes inc in the DPCA longevity program. You can look up dogs on the site that have achieved over the age of 10 status. Have to wonder how many of your breeder 14 yr dogs are included in that program? o As Dobs4 mentioned that is why the program was initiated. Breeders who randomly fling figures and statistcs with out ANY validation should always be passed by. I haven't seen the website but any $300.00 or dog in that price range dog would definately make me wonder..I can also telll you I recently ran across 7 week old puppies, cropped, for $850.00..no pedigree but ALSO no health testing and just a slew of excuses for not having that done, and not a one made ANY sense.to me BUT they would perhaps to someone who is taken by a "pretty website"...BUT, you have the puppy and best of luck.

[Bob J]

Apparently, in your rush to cast judgement, tidibole, you did not read this last sentance in one of my posts.

"Looking back on my purchase and knowing a lot more from reading information from people and breeders on this site, I still would have purchased Sabbath from this guy."

No other breeder that I visited would let me near any of their dogs. Only would let me interact with the puppies. That alone tells me of a temperment/aggression problem. I got to see a whole lot more than a website if you bothered to read all of my posts.

[Dobs4ever]

Bob I am so glad you found a vet that knew how to do the ears. They are getting fewer and further in between and I have seen some really crappy ear crops by vets who did not know what they were doing. You might know all the correct vet stuff but cropping ears takes an artistic eye and hand to truly make them beautiful. Glad you had a vet close by. To me the ears are such a big part of the beautify that can only be associated with our Dobermans!!!

We really do want to see pictures. If he looks like his daddy he will be very nice.

[tidibole]

Apparently, in your rush to cast judgement, tidibole, you did not read this last sentance in one of my posts.

"Looking back on my purchase and knowing a lot more from reading information from people and breeders on this site, I still would have purchased Sabbath from this guy."

No other breeder that I visited would let me near any of their dogs. Only would let me interact with the puppies. That alone tells me of a temperment/aggression problem. I got to see a whole lot more than a website if you bothered to read all of my posts.

AND if you had read my post and attempted to comprehend it's content, I also stated that I had a $200.00 dog with no health testing which turned out to be a wonderful dog for the entire 10 years that I had the fortune of living with him. As well as a $45.00 rescue dog...so perhaps there was confusion from both posts..And I truly want you to understand that I am not as quick to "cast jusdgement" as you may want to think! other wise I doubt very seriously I would be so eager to share my dogs that were purchased from less than "reputable breeders" on this or any other site.!!!!!!!As I have mentioned I purchased a 6 week old for $200.00, not one single inoculation, worming and even had to sign a statement validating that I understood that!

[Bob J]

Bob I am so glad you found a vet that knew how to do the ears. They are getting fewer and further in between and I have seen some really crappy ear crops by vets who did not know what they were doing. You might know all the correct vet stuff but cropping ears takes an artistic eye and hand to truly make them beautiful. Glad you had a vet close by. To me the ears are such a big part of the beautify that can only be associated with our Dobermans!!!

We really do want to see pictures. If he looks like his daddy he will be very nice.

Yeah, he was the only vet in the entire county that still crops ears. He wasn't cheap but he did all the taping and would retape when necessary for me.

[Big Dogs]

Bob good luck with the new pup. Everyone of us can learn something and this is a good place to learn those things. I would imagine everyone of us has acquired dogs in a similar fashion to the way you did some with good results and others with bad. I have one that is 11 and is a great dog and always was. My only suggestion to you is start to train early and get help if you need to it will pay off.

[Dobs4ever]

Bob - I too would be leary if I could not see the other dogs. That would be a red flag so do understand from that stand point.

[Panama]

Yep, nothing better to do then dig up a thread from 2 yrs ago and continue to beat it to death.

Apparently the Mods & Admin have taken an extended vaction or something.

Many have given their opinions on the breeders mentioned. There is 1000's of websites that give their opinions also.

VWoofe, you yourself had to learn the hard way, and I understand your effort to help someone else avoid the same situation. Again, you've clearly stated you opinion (over & over again). Put the baseball bat away, the horse has been dead for quite some time now!

[Kimbertalkls]

I know this is old but Kimbertal is not connected with ACA and has only AKC registered dobermans. When we had rare breeds they were registered with the breed club or another registry but we do not have them any longer so we only have AKC dogs on site. Also the same Robert Yarnall that started Kimbertal still owns it. He is in his 80s. AnneYou are absolutely correct. I purchased my first dobe in 1976 from a breeder in Conn, Ch sired, etc, shown on the West coast and even at that time Kimbertal still had a few GOOD dogs that were campaigned in not only Breed but also obedience. Currently they are on the Euro track, importing Int'lCh and then breeding and selling these dogs for what one might consider astonomical prices as to what is also available from American breeders. I have not seen any of the dogs imported by Kimbertal in any ring or venue. Many newbies (and I do not mean that as negative, we all were at one time) are attracted to the site for exactly the reasons mentioned in other posts. I also think that they are more prone to sell without too many questions of the perspective owner unlike may American breeders. If you look at their Website, you will see many dogs from the 60's and 70's that were actively exhibited but that is not so anymore. you have to determine what you are expecting from the puppy you purchase? do you want to show conformation? then I don't think Kimbertal is right for you, Obedience? as Dobs4ever can attest, the Euro dogs excel in working ability and attitude but they may not always suitable for the pet or couch potatoe that some want...I have both an American/Argentinian and yes even Dutch bred and a Euro dog grand sired by a Kimbertal imported male. There is a definite difference in attitude and working ability. would I ever buy a dog from Kimbertal? I have to honestly say NO..do I love my boy, I can honestly say YES...But I have no expectations other then a possible obedience title..He is not of the quality for the AKC ring with a definite Euro look! I also BELIEVE that Yarnall started the ACA registration (American Canine Association)

[Big Dogs]

Really Bites isn't this enough.

[Logan]

Yep, nothing better to do then dig up a thread from 2 yrs ago and continue to beat it to death.

Apparently the Mods & Admin have taken an extended vaction or something.

Many have given their opinions on the breeders mentioned. There is 1000's of websites that give their opinions also.

VWoofe, you yourself had to learn the hard way, and I understand your effort to help someone else avoid the same situation. Again, you've clearly stated you opinion (over & over again). Put the baseball bat away, the horse has been dead for quite some time now!


I agree to 100 %