Shock Collars

[BlastFromthePast]

What do you guys think of shock collars? I'm having problems with training one of my dogs... she just will NOT respond to any of my commands, and none of the training tricks and methods I've tried so far seem to work.

She has dug up the yard and will not stop digging....she's even digging under the fence. We've had to move her pen twice because she's dug a hole so deep she escapes.

She also jumps terribly. Every time we go to let her out of the pen for exercise, she is jumping all over us. She nearly knocks me down!

I'm just about at my wit's end and am considering a shock collar, but I was hoping to get some advice here first.

[FancyFace]

Oh, please don't use a shock collar on your dog! I think this is just an awful practice. You wouldn't want to be shocked every time you drive over the speed limit, would you?

There must be something you can do to teach your dog without using a shock collar. Have you tried an obedience school or hiring a professional trainer?

[magtie]

A dog barking outside is usually out of frustration. I would try and find out "why" he/she is barking in the first place and see if you can correct it.

[Rich S]

I have to agree with the others, not a good idea. First see if there are any problems that can be solved.

Worst case scenario, they have collars that spray in the dog's face. These collars are great alternative, and yes they do work.

Having said all that, some dogs just are barkers. Case closed!

[BlastFromthePast]

Maybe I misunderstand shock collars. Are they only for barking? I thought they were set up where I would have a remote control and could press a button to shock the dog when she does any undesirable behavior (like digging). Am I mistaken?

Tell me more about the collar that sprays in the face. How does that work?

[Rich S]

The spray collar is activated by the barking. Good old fashion negative reinforcement.

The shock collars are generally used for keeping dogs within a certain area. A perimeter is set up and if the dog tries to go outside the area they are given a mild shock. However lots of people use them for training as well.

[BlastFromthePast]

Thanks, Rich. I think I completely misunderstood how shock collars worked. The spray collar sounds like a good alternative, but since barking isn't the problem I'm having with my dog I guess I'll keep looking.

[jelly8bean]

Two things suggestions.. a) try some structured Obedience classes. This will exercise your dog mentally as well as physically. And focus the training with assistance from a reputable trainer. b) Go for walks.. this will give you and your dog a bond as well as nice exercise. I don't mean long leash meandering either.. but loose leash, by me, purposeful walking. It sounds like your dog is bored and is making trouble because he doesn't have an effective outlet.

[MLR]

I do use electric shock training collars on both my dobes and they are different from bark deterrent collars; either the citranilla ones or the ones which shock a dog when they bark.

My training collars are made by Pet Safe and I bought them from Dr.'s Foster & Smith's catalog. The ones I use also have a tone feature, not just a shock button. And, yes, you are the one doing the shocking. These have varying levels of impulse and at worst (the highest level) feel like a major bee sting (I've tried it on my wrist because I wanted to see how bad it shocked them before I even began using them). If over used they can cause an agranulation where the probes touch the dogs skin so you have to watch out for that.

I would not use one on any dog younger than eight months old. And I agree with Jelly8bean and some of the others that this is a training method of last resort. But they really do work most of the time, expecially in an off leash situation.

My two are so used to them that I hardly have to ever have to push either button now (they are 2 1/2 & 4 1/2 years old). All they have to do is know they have these collars on and see the remote in my hand and they know I mean business. And I mostly use the tone button now if I have to give this kind of correction. It's like a warning. You still speak the command you want them to follow at the same time you push the button; either shock or tone. After a while they get the idea that it's better to respond to your spoken command than face the consequences. I always give them the spoken command first now and most times they respond without any further action on my part.

I did use the shock no-bark collars for quite a while but they really don't stop all the barking. Again, never on a dog younger than 8 months old. Most of them have an override feature where if the dog barks for more than a minute they shut off for several minutes. As smart as dobes are they figure this out pretty quickly and throw it into override deliberately and actually bark more. At least that's been my experience with using this type of no-bark collars. The theory behind these is that after a while you can just put the collars on your dog and not turn them on and the dog will not bark. I haven't found that to be the case and I have stopped using them.

They do have a new Pet Safe no-bark device on the market which looks like a bird house that you hang in your yard and it picks up on the dog's bark and emmits a high frequency sound that only the dog can hear which is supposed to be a deterrent to barking that I'm thinking of trying this spring. The beauty of this one is that if you also have a neighbors dog which barks this will stop it from barking, too. At least that's the theory. And there's no shock to the dog; just a sound.

These are not miracle cures for problem behavior. You still need to work with your dog on a daily basis and build a good trust relationship him or her. The whole purpose of the electronic training collars is to get them to pay attention to you in difficult situations. I never use them in places, like inside the house, where they aren't likely to get into trouble and there aren't many distractions like squirls or rabbits. And they shouldn't be used as a way to punish any dog for bad behavior. You're asking for trouble if you do that. These all come with an instructional CD and a booklet which explain in detail how and when to use this techique.

Mary Lou

[MLR]

I did find a site which explains the shock collars which are on the market now. Here's the listing: www.my-doberman.com

The article I read at the above site said that all of the shock collars on the market now all have the overide feature which prevents it from continuiously shocking a dog whether it's the owner pushing the button (in anger or whatever) or the collar reacting to the dogs behavior; like barking or going beyond a certain point in the yard like the parimiter sensor ones.

Another thing I have noticed is that if either of my dogs is agitated or excited about something the shock collar has more of a tendency to make them more so. So you really have to use discretion when administering the shock. My male, for instance, will take the shock if he sees a squirl or cat he wants to chase after but when he's being good and just not listening to me when I tell him to sit I get a look like 'what did I do, I'm not running'.

The ultimate goal with any shock collar is to have them respond to you and your verbal or non verbal command; not the collar.

Jealy8bean is right, a good trainer would be the best case scenereo. We just didn't have one within a 50 mile radius of where I live at the time I needed one so I resorted to the shock collars.

[Sue J]

I used to think shock collars were inhumane until I started field trialing beagles. Running them in the woods I've used shock collars in training them NOT to run deer. Most beaglers will tell you they use them for the same purpose. In the wild, a deer can run a beagle to never land and you might lose a fine (not to mention expensive) hound. Beagles also are known for being stubborn fairly often. That being said, the tone feature on the collars work pretty well when a beagle won't recall while hunting. The different levels of shock intensity allows control of what the shock is. They do learn fairly quickly what the collar means though, so now I only have to put in on my field trial girl and she remembers every lesson learned. Haven't turned the thing on for a long long time. I've had diggers and kennel barkers too. A water hose spray works for both! Try catching your dobe in the act of digging/barking and spray. it's cheaper than installing auto water spray systems. Hope you find some solutions, let us know if you find anything that helps.

[jelly8bean]

I am one of those that thinks a shock collar is not a substitute for full training. I have actually tried one years ago on a barker I had (non dobie) and it trained her to run from the collar. The actual barking behavior never went away due to the collar. So now I spend alot of time training and exercising them. I can understand how it is popular with some of the hunting dogs out in the open, but I still can't say I like the idea in general. If I had to have an electronic device for other than hunting I would use the spray collar over the shock collar. But patience and training have to be the key over devices..

[MLR]

I have never had a problem with getting my two dobermans to wear their electronic training collars. They always know when they see them that something good is about to happen, like we're going for a walk, and they do a little dance around the kitchen table whenever they see all their gear laid out there.

They also allow either myself or my grandchildren to put their electronic no-bark collars on them when they want to go outside. They have even gone so far as to walk over and nudge these collars when I'm nearby and not paying attention to them wanting out.

While I've seen the citranila no-bark collars in catalogs, I've never used one. It's the citranila that's the aversion component in these, not the spraying action. I would think that, as smart as dobermans are and as much as they hate getting wet, they would soon find a way to dismantel this type of bark control device. My two already know how to push the electronic shock element off to the side of their necks on their no-bark collars.

I think with either training method (electionic training collars or training classes alone) that as any dog matures so long as there is a positive loving interaction between them and their owners their behavior gets better all on it's own because they do so much want to please us.

Mary Lou

[Sue J]

Although I've never used the e-collar except running in the wild, my beagles have never had a problem trying to avoid having the collar put on them. I certainly agree that dogs need training, losts of exercise and interaction with their humans or they can become frustrated and bored which can be a cause of acting out.

[jelly8bean]

I'm just saying it shouldn't be my first choice of training devices.

[MLR]

I agree with both Jelly8bean and Sue J, it's the interaction between the owner and the dog that counts most. I only resorted to the e-collars because my male dobe, Hercules, had pulled me off my feet enough times at 8 months old for me to know that I had to have a means of controling him before he got any bigger. He didn't even mean to do it. He just got excited about seeing another dog at the playground where we go for exersize. He wasn't being agressive, just overly friendly. Needles to say the other owner was not amused to see my then 85 lb charmer racing pell mell towards her and her deaf dog.

Now that I have two dobes there is a greater need to keep them in line because they outweight me by 100 lbs if I take both of them out for a walk by myself. And try as I might I just can't seem to take out only one or the other. Those sad puppy dog eyes get me every time so they both go.

But, like Sue J, I mainly use the e-collar control in off leash experiences now that they are more mature. It's just nice to know that I, also, have that extra control when we unexpectedly run into a situation on leash where their primal urge would override their desire to please me and I'd be pulled to the ground (that hurts) because the chase is on. Living inside the city isn't always the easiest place to train a dog. And I'm a firm believer in socalizing my dobes as much as possible so they won't become aggressive with strangers. Today's Marmaduke cartoon is the best example I can think of of how my guys act when we are out in public. They've generally never met a person; male, female, or child, that they don't like.

Mary Lou

[Sue J]

Hey Jelly8bean, I agree 100% it shouldn't be a first choice and I don't plan on using with my dobe either unless her life would be in danger if she doesn't obey. My experience with them is solely related to beagles. We tried several different things with the beagles to no avail before I used it. I tracked my little beagle, "Jaz", two miles once before I caught her off a deer. We live in the mountains and believe me I was worried to death that I'd never find her. I cried most of the way. We've had friends who lost their beloved dogs after days and days of searching. Sometimes a beagle will run to it's death when the scent is strong. Don't mean to make this a beagle chat, but just wanted to share what changed my mind about their use. Training newbie beagles involves positive reinforcement and use basic obedience commands too (we don't do "sit", but "down") and a whole different dialogue. They don't always differentiate well between game and train & trial in packs, so sometimes the last resort to avoid danger is an e-collar.

[MLR]

What do you guys think of shock collars? I'm having problems with training one of my dogs... she just will NOT respond to any of my commands, and none of the training tricks and methods I've tried so far seem to work.

She has dug up the yard and will not stop digging....she's even digging under the fence. We've had to move her pen twice because she's dug a hole so deep she escapes.

She also jumps terribly. Every time we go to let her out of the pen for exercise, she is jumping all over us. She nearly knocks me down!

I'm just about at my wit's end and am considering a shock collar, but I was hoping to get some advice here first.

I'm not advocating for or against this method. I believe this thread was started to get opinions on how the electriconic training devices worked and what other people's experiences have been with using them, if any.

I didn't plan on using them at all in the beginning. I didn't even know they existed. But when your 60 years old with your own physical disabilities which limit your strength and have a doberman puppy given to you by your child who cannot take care of him and are committed to giving it a home for the rest of it's life, you do what you have to do to make that work. My guys are not in the show ring, they are members of my family. The neighborhood I live in can be troublesome and the city I live in has ordinances about any dog who breaks away from it's owner and goes after another person or domestic animal. They, the city, would put my dogs to sleep if I couldn't control them either on or off the leash. In fact we recently had an experience where a black bear 'cub' somehow rambled into the city limits and the police chased it and deliberately hit it with a car and shot it several times wounding it and then after it ran up a tree they shot and killed it even though someone from our local zoo was on the way with a tranquilizer gun and they knew it. They called out the entire force for this. I don't want that to happen to my dogs. They are about the same size as that baby bear. With that kind of mentality I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate to shoot a doberman owing to their false bad reputation.

Mary Lou

[jelly8bean]

I have heard about the hunting situation but I think that is vastly different than what the OP was mentioning. I do have to say that I believe for the OP supervision and training plus more exercise would be key to improving their dobies behavior. A pen has only so many interesting things and the dog is clearly incredibly happy to be out. I don't know that my lovies could survive a life in a pen.. they are so people oriented.

[MLR]

I think the word shock collar is inaccurate here and may be what's causing this disagreement in training methods. In the pet catalog I recieved today they call them static collars and liken the experience to that of walking across a carpet and getting a static electricity shock which, while not pleasant, isn't going to physically harm the dog unless it's overused. I think that is where all the confusion is coming into this discussion. These collars aren't like the 'tasers', or 'stun guns', that the police use. That's a whole other kind of product. The ones I use, also, have a high frequency tone button which I would guess would be the equivalent to clicker training. The ultimate aim in using these collars properly is to have the dog respond to you, not the device in the long run. And they do provide back up for recall in the off leash situation if there's a distraction until a dog can be trusted.

On the other hand, just because the collar is on the dog, if he is responding to your verbal commands, there isn't any need to use the remote. At least that's what I find is happening with my two as time goes by.

Mary Lou