Interesting Message on Training techniques

[jelly8bean]

Here is an interesting survey from U of PA.

http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/current/research/030509.html

This is just a survey, but does seem to confirm what most of us know about positive reinforcement vs punishment.

[SnuzerDog]

The authors seem to miss the fact that Millan's clients almost always have dogs that are very far gone down the road of dominance and aggression- to the point that some cannot be approached without total confidence. Also, the show always starts with a warning that these techniques are Cesar's own, and that people should always contact a training/behavioral specialist instead of trying them on their own. If a pilot was filmed showing how he flies a 747, would that make someone watching knowledgeable enough to try it on their own? Kind of an extreme analogy, but seriously, how many people really have studied dog behavior/psychology???

I am a fan of The Dog Whisperer, simply because I feel there is a lot to learn from not only watching, but listening to how Cesar explains why he is doing what he is doing. If you read his books, you get that to the n'th power- all the backstory there isn't time for on TV. You know how some people 'just have a knack' for doing certain things- also sometimes being called a 'natural'- that is how I see Cesar. But, this does not mean I think I can do everything that he can! I do remember one episode with a terribly shy, rescued, Viszla named Banjo with whom he was nothing less than 100% positive, loving and patient.

I love Cesar's philosophy of 'the energy' that he always talks about- and how this is the main way that dogs communicate. This concept has helped me understand my dog's behavior much better as I have observed him over time and analyzed my own feelings and moods in relation. Also, his 'pack rehabilitation' method and theory is unique to my knowledge, and deserves careful consideration and attention. He has zeroed in on the fact that dogs, no matter how far removed from their lupine ancestors, are still pack animals and need social interaction to be happy, just as humans do, but in so many situations have been denied this. He also uses some of his extremely well-adjusted dogs from his center as 'therapy' dogs for other dogs, apparently without really even realizing that's what they are! Also, remember Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs for humans? Well, Cesar has developed his own hierarchy for dogs, and has opened the eyes of many, including myself as to why our beloved pets might not be so happy as we would like them to be. He insists that exercise, discipline (not harsh tyranny) and then finally affection (including care & feeding), in this order, are paramount- and he proves over and over again on his show how they work hand in hand, but not out of order and not out of balance.

Cesar Millan is far from being the only knowledgeable, capable behaviorist or trainer out there. There is another fellow (can't remember his name) out there who has put out some dvd's on training that label him as the 'original dog whisperer' who is also excellent. Karen Pryor practically revolutionized the field of animal training and behavioral psychology with her books, and many of her students have gone on to become reputable and famous trainers published in their own right. Cesar just happens to have been in the right place (LA) at the right time, and had some help from some powerful people in the entertainment industry who actually pushed him into doing the show.

This study reminds me of academics who become jealous or antagonistic when a colleague finds financial success, or an 'amateur' gains notoriety for his 'crazy' methods. It seems the game then becomes one of tearing down the successful colleague or creative amateur. The authors associate Millan with 'aversive' training without really qualifying what that is. I believe correction of unacceptable behavior must occur- but what is important is what/how/when that correction is delivered- violently, or firmly with love? I've never seen an episode where Cesar angrily or harshly corrected a dog, and he uses positive reinforcement regularly- and he teaches when it is appropriate! It appears to me that this university publication is simply trying to promote a study by researchers of its own for the sake of publicity and attracting attention through conflict with a popular personality. IMHO. :rolleyes:

[jelly8bean]

I am not a fan of Mr. Millan.. as always there are some good things that he does or it wouldn't work at all, but in my mind the majority of the show is just show-off. And the thought that people think they are learning to deal with dogs via a TV show is absurd. I believe that the publication of this sort of survey information is important to educate the public regarding a real problem that the show has been generating. Too many people think they can deal with their dogs with the Alpha Roll type style shown on the show (because they saw it on TV) and it is causing issues all around the US, which is why there are studies like this needed.

I can quote some of the books from the authors you mention about what aversive techniques are if you really need it, Jean Donaldson is my personal favorite.

[SnuzerDog]

Jelly, I do think this is an interesting study, and points up a serious problem. I do also think that they are unfairly blaming Millan for advancing techniques that have been a problem since humans began to keep dogs as pets, long before there was a 'Dog Whisperer' show, while they apparently present no data as to his level of influence.

I understand what 'aversive techniques' are, my point is that the article fails to define them with regard to specific examples of Millan's methods. Instead, it simply characterizes them as 'hitting', 'growling' and 'forcing the dog onto it's back'. I would guess that the owners in the study almost universally did these things in a negative, punishing, aggressive mood, which would worsen the problem, and is not in the manner that Millan suggests.

Millan's methods are simply different- his 'corrections' are more like a tap on the shoulder than a swat; I don't think I've ever seen an episode where he growled at an animal; I've never heard a dog yelp at a 'bite' and the few times he has rolled a dog, he has specifically said he does not like to do this unless absolutely nothing else works, and that it should not be done by an amateur. Even then, he is simply waiting for the dog to calm down and be receptive, at which point they can begin to learn again. I think he is being painted, with a broad brush, as a user of solely negative reinforcement and I do not agree with that appraisal. Without getting too far into semantics, would you call a 'time-out' given to a child a correction? It seems to me that improper behavior must be 'corrected', but that the word itself, like the word 'discipline', has become improperly associated with punishment.

The way he encourages people to spend time with their dogs in exercise, play, socialization and at home is admirable, the lack of which has generally been the cause of these severe problems in the first place. But, I agree with him that, in every human home, children and pets must understand their place for their safety and well-being. How the parent(s) do this is the question- from love, or from intimidation? Honestly, the show is more about re-training humans than dogs, and he treats the dogs better than most people treat their children!

Again, many of the animals he works with are 'red-zone' cases, which is perhaps part of the problem- they are the extremes, not your normal situation. I would be very interested to see how you would effectively apply only positive techniques to these cases to lasting effect. Have you watched many episodes, or read any of his books? Which situations do you most disagree with? I certainly respect your opinion, and only wish to continue this discussion in the spirit of learning. :o

[jelly8bean]

I have not read any of his books.. but I have seen plenty of the show to be able to discuss it with people. I have worked with many shelter dogs and puppies that have a load of behavioural issues. These are all dealt with in a very positive way and have had long lasting changes in the dogs. Many people who come to the shelter to volunteer or adopt do ask about the Dog Whisperer techniques. They are redirected to the less confrontational methods and to the behavior modification literature. This is one of the reasons I am all too aware of the impact this show has.

As I said before he is not completely off in the wilds, the things about interaction, exercise, etc are all very on target. But the alpha roll and some of the other force techniques used to deal with aggression and dog on dog problems have been displaced by more humane training techniques. I personally pursue non-adversive training, my "correction" is "no reward". I try to redirect or ignore behavior I do not want, and reward and party for the behavior I do want.

An example I saw recently was with a St. Bernard dog that wouldn't go up the stairs. In one afternoon he "cured it" by physically dragging the dog up and down the stairs by the collar. I was appalled that the owners allowed this to be done to their dog who was clearly fearful. I don't say you don't have to train them that this is not a problem and the owners were sinfully at fault to let this develop to a full blown obsession with a dog this large, but the hauling was just hard on the dog. Both of my dobies were afraid to go up and down the stairs when I first got them. I also went to physical route but not hauling their collars, I actually carried them both up and down the first two days. Then used treats to lure them up (down seemed to come very easily).. now the stairs seem to be a motorway for them to race. I just respect a different approach. Dragging the dog up by the leash is confronting the dog's fear and my picking them up and carrying them was more of an avoidance ploy. If there had been any issue with either of them with the carrying I would have not done it, and just continued to work on the treats and luring for the stairs.

[SnuzerDog]

Agreed on the stairway solution, and agreed that Millan does sometimes go a bit out of bounds. I think I have posted in other threads that my dog Deano, a rescue, was very fearful when we got him, and it's been an education helping him work through his issues. There have been a few times when I have had to force him to move against his will- once, on a walk during an ice storm, he became (repeatedly) paralyzed due to the slippery footing; and then when cars come down the road behind us and I sometimes have to get him up off the road. But other than that I definitely prefer your technique!

Another DW episode I saw was with a pit bull that had become so lazy and so unresponsive that it would refuse to go for a walk- when leashed it would simply lay on it's side. Millan brought one of his dogs along, the big pit bull I think, for moral support for it, also. But basically, they ended up taking the dog for a drag, until it decided to get up and walk- it was hard to watch, but I never got the impression that the dog was being harmed or in pain, just uncomfortable enough to finally get up! After it 're-discovered' the fun of walking with it's owner and another dog, it was up and prancing around having a great time. What do you think?

I guess I equate this with a defiant child that is used to getting their way all the time until someone finally puts their foot down. Does that mean they are then punished or verbally abused? Not necessarily; they just need to realize that their environment now has new rules, starting now, and how long they take to accept this is totally up to them. When the parents come from a place of confidence, control and patience the child understands very quickly it is not wise to defy- not out of fear, but because there is no reward. If, however, the child refuses to leave the house, I guess I personally would have no problem taking them by the hand and physically dragging them to the car; if you picked them up, would they not see this as a way to get picked up and taken to the car? I think it would depend on how you progressed in handling the same situation over the next few occurrences???

I know I am still learning, and am all for reducing/eliminating methods that require physical force. I think proponents of positive methods need a venue/voice like Cesar's- or perhaps they should suggest some specific techniques for him to try- a challenge, per se- to see how he does with them! :)

[jelly8bean]

My take on it is, the dog is not a child..and will not learn or react like a child. Though some people tend to humanize the dog (in this I agree with Millan) it just isn't a realistic association. However, I agree that when there is a danger (in the road) you do whatever needs to be done, but there are ways and there are ways.

If it had been me with the reluctant to walk dog I would not have forced a walk on him .. this is the part of the show that I believe is showmanship. He has to solve it right now on TV! I would have started with the idea that the leash is a good thing and done alot of work on making that a good thing with treats or toys or whatever. Then I would have lured the dog with whatever it's motivator was (including another dog - I'm sure they could have found someone with another dog to help) and gotten them going that way. These things take time to overcome typically. Many things are based on consistency and repetition in training. I carried my dogs up the stairs because I wanted to show them there was nothing to fear, it was a very short term thing just to get them ok with the idea.. not to train them to be carried up the stairs.

I have had to deal with fearful and aggressive dogs and one of the best resources I found is a book called "Fight" by Jean Donaldson. It has much slower but more purposeful ways of defusing and redirecting/training aggressive dogs. One thing that translates over to fearful dogs is the threshold. This is the point where your dog shuts down or can't tolerate the object of fear. The suggested way to deal with it is to take your dog up to that point and then have a party that they made it there without reaction. Then try one step/inch whatever closer and again have a party. It takes lots of time, but it ends up with the zone being really reduced and effectively eliminated most of the time. Of course it is dependant on the dog.

One show you might want to catch is called "its me or the dog" on Animal Planet. Victoria Stillwell is a pretty good trainer with only positive methods and while not as charismatic as Millan, she has a good method. One of the best things that anyone can do is to get themselves into the hands of a reliable good trainer that you can work with. I have tried alot of trainers myself and found you have to search for the one that clicks with you and your dog sometimes.

[SnuzerDog]

Thanks for the suggestion on the book by Donaldson. I was not able to find it at our library, but they did have Culture Clash, so I reserved that and I'll do some digging on the web for Fight.

I did catch an episode of It's Me or the Dog, and thought it was pretty good as well, but didn't see alot of difference between that and TDW, although one episode is hardly enough to make any good observations. I will set my dvr to start recording some of those and take in a few more.

I guess I just don't see Cesar Millan as an 'aversive' or anti-positive trainer. FWIW, I don't do the 'bite' thing, and it'll be a cold day in he** before I try rolling Deano :eek: or any other dog. My take on it is that the dogs/issues he deals with are far beyond what most people will ever encounter, or ever have enough confidence to deal with in the manner he does. And it does not appear that he is harming the dogs in any way. I think the producer does a pretty good job of prefacing every show, and after every commercial break, of warning people not to try this at home... But it's hard stopping people from doing unwise things... I wonder, did the Crocodile Hunter ever come under fire for this sort of thing before he passed on? I guess he wasn't dealing with house pets that everyone has... :D

[jelly8bean]

I hope you will get some good stuff from "Culture Clash". It is a primer for most dog trainers/behaviorists. I don't think Millan is anti-positive training either. I guess my take on it is that any of the roll em, leash jerk em school are old time adversive training methods and this is what folks seem to take away most of the time from TDW, since it is what he shows most often. People are easily confused about what they see on TV. The prefacing and warnings didn't start till after the first year when so many folks started getting into trouble. I do think that Millan is reacting to the many critiques of his methods and has been clearly softening and altering his message in more recent shows. (alot of "I'm not hurting the dog" and discussion of anger ie "energy").

And actually yes, there were some problems that the Croc hunter had, both with people thinking they could try his moves and with people upset with his "interference" with nature. TV is a powerful tool and reaches all sorts of folks. Many with less common sense than others. You seem to have a good handle on the things to take away and I'm sure that Deno will benefit from your positive and learning attitude. I'm sure he is so glad he has you now.

[Sue J]

I have watched both Millan and Stillwell. With Millan, I quit because it seemed to me that he used almost the same technique with every dog. To me it was almost like "watch one and you've seen 'em all". The one thing I do agree with is walking/exercise first. I also appreciated his attempts to get people to understand dogs aren't human. IMHO some of the people on the show were just plain stupid about that, like the one where that woman spent a huge amount each month on clothes for her dog. Stillwell seemed to have a broader base of techniques. I think overall that t.v. shows sensationalize and minimize the need for thorough training. People want an immediate fix and may take away try the wrong things from the show and make issues worse.

[violator]

I have watched both Millan and Stillwell. With Millan, I quit because it seemed to me that he used almost the same technique with every dog. To me it was almost like "watch one and you've seen 'em all". The one thing I do agree with is walking/exercise first. I also appreciated his attempts to get people to understand dogs aren't human. IMHO some of the people on the show were just plain stupid about that, like the one where that woman spent a huge amount each month on clothes for her dog. Stillwell seemed to have a broader base of techniques. I think overall that t.v. shows sensationalize and minimize the need for thorough training. People want an immediate fix and may take away try the wrong things from the show and make issues worse.

i have stayed out of this discussion by choice as i am a dog trainer.

but i have to agree here, cesar uses the same technique on every dog...and the problem there is people pick it up and think "hey i can do this this looks easy" and that is where my problems begin, you abosolutely CANNOT learn how to train a dog by watchin a 60 minute t.v show about how to do it, i have respect for cesar, his techniques do work, but to me its all a bit hippy-ish and blase...a LOT is cut out like when the dog refuses to do what u tell it and u have to get a rapore with the animal and get the animal to trust you before it will (in some cases) even come near you.

d.w glamorises what is a hard job, both phisically and mentally too at times, it shows the parts where everything is going well and not where it isnt and u are bangin your head against a brick wall.

like i said though i am not at all bitter, i do watch the programme too and i have the upmost respect for cesar millan, i respect him both as a dog trainer and as a human being, but i feel he was simply in the right place at the right time, and to be honest it can happen to anyone.

[SnuzerDog]

Vio, your points are well taken. He is something of a 'one trick pony', although to be fair, it seems like many of the dogs he works with have the same issues of aggression and dominance.
Another impression I have taken away from Millan is that he is not above learning and evolving, and admits it when he discovers something new. I like that the guy doesn't let his ego get the better of him and shares insights with viewers and readers. His recent email newsletter is an example of this, if you read it- not just about dogs anymore, but he weaves personal insights into his world/dog views.
When I take on a new endeavor, I have learned to learn from many masters- as in all things, there are many ways and paths to the same goal. I try to take from each what helps me the most personally, experiment, examine my results, and make adjustments. To me, that is the whole point and purpose of a forum such as this, the objective sharing of information for the greater good of all! :)

[violator]

i totally agree a froum is there to share thoughts, insights and try to help one another and ok we may not get it right all of the time, but making mistakes and learning from them is what being a human is all about after all.

[SnuzerDog]

Jelly, I found a copy of Fight at an eBay seller's store, and have it in hand. Looking forward to getting into it! That reminds me, the library hasn't sent me any pickup notices for Culture Clash yet... :confused: