Breeder?? or NOT??

[Bilton]

Ok so i have been doing alot of research on the dobe and it's still the dog for me. But i have a question to everyone out there who might read this.

Do i have to buy my new dobe from a breeder? and more specifically a breeder who claims champion blood?

See, I want a good dog, with a good family history. But I dont plan to show my dog, so I dont really care about having a certain prestigious blood line. These champion lines seem to make the dogs insanely expensive.

So if someone has a suggestion please please let me know. I just dont see the reason in spending 2k for a puppy with some crazy blood line. I just want an affordable dog (I know im gona spend some money for it) and a dog that will keep me company in the next stage of my life.

Thanks all,

Bill

[Bilton]

Also,

If some people could tell me like.. what they paid for their dobe pups that would be awesome too!!!

[Sue J]

Bill: jelly8bean has wonderful experience with rescue. Is that something you've thought of?

[violator]

my pup is 16months old and i paid £550 pounds, you can work it out lol, but dont look beyond rescue...in america there are loads of doberman rescue centres, if there were some here with pups i wouldnt have hesitated in getting one from there, i have rescued loads of dogs in the past.

[jelly8bean]

For your goals, I would really check on Rescue as the others have said. There are loads of wonderful dogs that are in doberman rescue organizations. Most just got too big, or too energetic for their owners and have nothing wrong with them. Google Doberman Rescue and your state and I'm sure you will find someone to connect with.

The other way is to find a good reputable breeder. When they have litters not all of them are show quality and they place those as pets (spay/neuter required). They are still pretty expensive, but another alternative. Whatever you do, check out the breeder closely. Any group that has more than one or two litters a year can be very close to puppy mill and no one wants to support that sort of activity.

[Big Dogs]

I agree that there are many great dogs out there in shelters and rescues that would meet your needs. Not knowing your experience with dogs I would suggest that you take a reputable dog trainer with you if you are inexperienced when going to a shelter or rescue to help you evaluate the dogs when choosing. I don't agree that a breeder that has two or more litters a year should be considered a puppy mill! When looking at a breeder ask about there guaranties how long they have been in the business what they would do if you were not satisfied with your puppy and most of all visit the breeder several times before making a choice and still take a qualified dog trainer with you to help make your choice. In both instances returning a dog to a shelter,rescue or breeder is both hard on you and even harder on the dog.

[jelly8bean]

I believe I said

Any group that has more than one or two litters a year can be very close to puppy mill

Because of my work with SPCA and rescues I'm very aware of "commercial" breeders who are on the edge of the classic puppy mill. With companion animal overpopulation the way it is, you need to be very careful about where you lend your support thru $$$.

[Bilton]

thanks for the input everyone.

I havent owned a dog by myself before because its to hard to switch housing during college and i am a student that really cant afford the security deposit that most apts. ask for when you have a dog.

I have owned a couple of dogs during my childhood and while i was in high school. I had a golden retriever mix from the pound and i had a full blood chocolate lab. My family usually has working dogs like blue healers and such because my dad works cattle.

So i guess you could say im not like an "experienced" dog owner, but I know what to do with an animal.

I haven't even thought of a rescue program. I guess i had the thought in my mind that dogs from a rescue center were a problem.. and i didnt want to take on the problem.. haha that sounds awful.. but im gona keep doing my research. I graduate in December so i have a while till i can get one anyway.

[triplecminis]

In the hopes of not ticking anyone off can I just point a couple of things out.....
I may make some people mad but after all we are all in title to an opinion.... First of all I do not agree that every breeder is a puppy mill I think way to much credit is paid to the media and a FEW rotten breeders.... I was in the pet store the other day and mentioned that I had dobies and the lady proceeded to tell me they do not support the sell of full blooded pups to discourage puppy mills.... Believe me I do not support the thought of a puppy mill either but.... here is my thought..... they have tons of birds that they pluck from the moms and hand raise to profit off these birds.... is this not the kettle calling the pot black???? Who decides the rules???? anyone who bashes breeders and then says they admire a breed is that not contridicting in a way???? the dog you have would never have evolved into that breed had somone not taken the time to breed for certain traits long ago.... None of us would know the joy of owning such a loyal intellegent breed if someone had not taken the time to produce the dogs we have now.... even if you got a rescue dog these dogs did not at anytime just appear without someone breeding two dogs together to get that pup..... So why is there such a negative vibe about the fact that a kennel breeds trying to produce good puppies as long as they screen the buyers... never produce more puppies than they can sell and try to improve the lines???? I don't care how careful you are sometimes things will just not work between the buyer and the pup.... if that to be blamed on the breeder????? Puppies end up in shelters because the people that buy them are not able to care for them.... why does it seem that some want to blame breeders for this happening???? To me I would say that is the buyers fault because in buying the pup they take on the responsibility of that pups future.... I am not breeding dobies and if I ever did I would never ever give them to a pet shop to begin with..... just like in 15 years I have never sent a horse to auction.... but I can not be blamed for the lack of responibility of someone who says they are going to buy a horse and then does not follow through with the promise they made to me in buying the horse and KENNELS should not be held responsible because someone put one of thier puppies in a shelter.... THIS IS MY OPINION!!!!!!

[jelly8bean]

Triple - Everyone has their own opinions and that is what keeps a forum like this interesting. I hope that everyone realizes that what I post is my own opinion.

I assume you are talking to me because I am the one that talks about puppy mills. I try to be very careful about what I say on breeders since I am not one. I do think that reputable breeders are all about producing good puppies, screening buyers etc. I also love this breed and appreciate those that want to improve it. I certainly do not think everyone who breeds runs a puppy mill and I hope I don't sound like that. The problem is that there are many folks who don't know about puppy mills and are just getting into this breed and when they come to this forum I think we need to make sure they are aware. There are lots of slick websites that sound good, but really are not. Education is key and part of why I and I'm sure most others participate in these forums.

The one point I would like to address is that reputable breeders almost never have puppies or dogs that end up in shelters. 100% of the reputable breeder contracts say if the dog doesn't work out for any reason at all (health, temperament, time, money whatever) the breeder will take the dog back. As you say, it doesn't always work so nothing is a certainty for anyone, but that is what the contract say and why you will seldom, if ever, see a dog in rescue etc from good breeders.

[Dobs4ever]

Welcome and glad you are doing some research first. Picking a breeder is really an individual thing but there are some key things to look for. Does the breeder show or work their own dogs or just talk about past dogs in the pedigree??? Does the breeder have nice pictures on the web site of dogs stacked or working?? Or just photos of the dogs lounging around??? A picture is worth a 1000 words. Does the breeder do any health testing? Are they a member of DPCA or UDC?? Does the breeder breed Z factored dogs? There are key areas even if you are just looking for a pet puppy to study especially if you want a nice dog. If you do not care what it looks like or do not care about the health behind your dog then it does not matter so much and I would agree get a rescue.

[triplecminis]

Oh no Jelly not at all I was referring to the simple down right ignornace of the pet shop owner who bashed all breeders yet had baby birds plucked from thier mothers to hand feed them and profit off them....my question is what gives her the right to think she can snub her nose at anyone when she is not any better.... it has nothing to do with what you posted.... I agree everyone has a right to feel the way they do about an opinion but they have to stand by it entirely not just to the degree that suits them....

[Dobs4ever]

First to actually answer your question there are some things you need to consider and Yes a pet puppy should not cost $2000.00. Why is CH bloodline important - You can actually have or find out the history of the dogs behind your puppy. It is like have the health info of biological parents when a baby is adopted. Good breeders have shown or worked their dogs to prove they worth for breeding and when the dogs grow up they actually look like dobes. AKC reg alone does not guarantee this. For some this is important for some a pig in the poke is find.

Next many times some get their first Dobe and then because they are so awesome and smart decide they would like to do something with the dog. Good breeding gives you a much better chance of having a dog that is trainable, has a brain and the conformation to hold up and that you would be proud to take out in public.

I really don't get this trying to judge how many litters someone has a year and classifying them as puppy mills. Some of the top breeders come from an time when Good breeders had 50 to 100 Dobermans. They certainly were not puppy mills because they also worked and or showed their dogs and built solid reputations on producing quality. They also had the diversity in their own bloodline to make great improvements. Persoanlly I feel if a breeder only has one litter every couple years they just can't know as much as the top breeder of bye gone years. They just don't have the vast experience in dealing with a large variety of dogs so can actually help their families should they have a question. They place puppies on a contract with a spay -neuter agreement, take puppies back, ears are already done and are there for lifetime support, health test etc. If nothing ever goes wrong and you don't need any help or questions answered ever then you can get your dog wherever and cheaper for sure.

A puppy mill on the other hand does not take care of their dogs, has a large variety of different kinds of dogs, has never seen a show grounds, breed the dog every cycle, they are caged with not exercise or human contact and interaction, sell to commercial pet stores or anyone, no health testing, don't keep the dogs clean even and that is a FAR cry from a quality breeder who might have 3 to xx litters a year doing everything right. If we continue to bash breeders and set ridiculous standards pretty soon all you will have is the stuff you find in rescue which is usually a mutt or a BYB dog.

[tidibole]

There are MANY breeders that are less than reputable who easily fall into either a PM or a CB...Many of the commercial breeders are now exhibiting in different venues in order to solidify the value of their puppies. Looking for easily obtained titles to make their dogs appear more worthy. I agree the major difference in my opinion between PM and CB is the amount of care given and the selection of healthier dogs for breeding programs. Although FEW do the testing that a breeder of quality dogs pursues. I also have to reiterate than when dobermans first came into their own, MANY breeders had more than the number of dogs that would be exceptable in todays society and for that I am thankful. Due to this dedication we have the gene pool of the dobe today. Although perhaps diminishing with the health issues currently being diagnosed. But then that is certainly a subject all to it's OWN thread!

[Dobs4ever]

Tidibole - you always thank goodness show some common sense. Some folks today just go off the deep end. Let me say this about "easy" titles. There are no easy titles. Anything you do with your Dobes forces you to get the dog out and you have to learn something, which can often lead to one or two things - one they fall in love and get bit by the show bug or they give up and draw back into their hole. So when I see any title I just say thank goodness they at least tried something instead of sitting home complaining about everyone else. The more you do the more you learn and the better you get.

[tidibole]

Tidibole - you always thank goodness show some common sense. Some folks today just go off the deep end. Let me say this about "easy" titles. There are no easy titles. Anything you do with your Dobes forces you to get the dog out and you have to learn something, which can often lead to one or two things - one they fall in love and get bit by the show bug or they give up and draw back into their hole. So when I see any title I just say thank goodness they at least tried something instead of sitting home complaining about everyone else. The more you do the more you learn and the better you get.Thank you for that! And I was not referring to the geneal PM as very few are Dobe breeders in the true sense of the word. Thank goodness the dobe is too high maintenance and not cost efficient to breed in that volume, although I am sure I could be corrected in that area. When referring to an easy title I by no means meant to belittele or demean the title as a WHOLE. I too have an Nat/Int'l titles on several dogs and take it as serious as I would an AKC title in the mere preparation and training of the dog. Having competed with horses, I have always felt that a dog/horse is an extension of yourself and your values as an owner and/or breeder. I hope to learn from every venue I pursue, however, there are those that given the basic requirements for finishing a dog in in the Int'l have no ambition BEYOND the title and the value it represents to further the value of the offspring. Generaslly the tiel can be obtained in a weekend of 4 shows and although I have been told it is of the same requirement as in the country of orgins. I LOVE the IABCA especially with young novice dogs and owners. It is a wonderful introduction to,the ring in a more relaxed and friendly enviorment. BUT I don't stop there, I hope I have the quality to at least not embarass myself, my dog and my breeder when exhibiting in other venues and registries. I take pride in my dog's appearance and training and abiltity to compete successfully! MANY DO NOT..I have seen dogs in the Int'l that are poor respresentatives but because they have no major disqualfying faults still obtain the title even though placement in the classes and group are monexistant. Sometimes shown by individuals that barely combed their hair. Most of the Int'l judges as YOU know are AKC with some Canadian, etc and should be shown the same respect that I hope one would attribute to an AKC judge in that RING..With that said I apologize if I offended anyone by the previous post.

[Dobs4ever]

Excellent clarification and thank you for that. I like the International because it is the exact same title that is Intl in Europe. Same orgination guidelines, same critieria and I enjoy it becasue you can show your own dog, you get a written critique from the judge which certainly when I was learning was a big help to see if I picked up or saw what the judges sees as far as good and bad. You can also talk to the judge and they are a little more approachable then when they are in the AKC ring. No it should not be an end all end all certainly for a breeder but neither should the AKC CH. Too many breeders ONLY show to get the CH and do nothing else. I can have a dog ready to prance around the ring, stack both hand and free and gait correctly down and back in a week. Working titles take much longer and far more committment and teach you so much about the dogs true temperament which CH does not even address temperament, working ability etc.

[tidibole]

True but we are discussing purely the BEAUTY/FORM aspect of the dog in both AKC/IABCA conformation. As discussed earlier in the country of orgin BEFORE a dog can be bred there is more involved than just obtaining V1 ratings to determine suitable breeding animals. That is where the major difference would come in between serious breeders and those just using an Int'l as an additional ploy to sell puppies. As in any other breeding program compatibilty and forethought to pedigree should play an important role in the process of production however, many as I refer to ONLY achieve that title for one reason. Should the Int'l ever employ the same standard here for breeding as it does in the other countries, how many breeders would not pursue or COULD not pursue the required results?? You also have to consider that dogs that may have originated from PM/CM rarely stand a chance in the AKC ring but yet can go to the Int'l...Just an intereseting comparison...

[Dobs4ever]

First it is not the International that requires addl requirements for breeding it is the FCI of which the International obtains it authority to hold Seiger shows and is only one of the requirements. I personally would love to see the AKC make a CH title only one part of a 3 legged stool. 1. CH for conformation 2. minimum WAE 3 obedience BUT that is like cutting your nose off to spite your face IMO.

I do feel that it is harder for us to understand becasue dogs are not judged against each other but against the standard. I see no difference at all in that some AKC ch are very pour examples of the standard but they did get their CH just not all at the same time. UDC follows much of the same guidelines as the Intl as the dog must have 3 CC (Champion certificates to be consider Ch but in UDC it is a 3 part CH) 1. the dog must first pass a temperament test and two they much have a working title being either a BH or CD for the CH to be completed and awarded. And they can't win from a puppy class as many of the AKC ch are darn lucky that they got it as a puppy because now they are actually oversized but still CH. So UDC allows one CC from the youth class but the final 2 must come from the adult class.

A conformation title should remain just that conformation is conformation and obedience is obedience and temperament is temperament. I don't see it being wise to cross those lines in trying to cram it all in. Then we need a new title like IPO and UDC where the dog is required to do 3 things to obtain the particular title.

In the end we are still trying to bind our opinions on folks instead of letting the cream rise to the top and let the buyer be responsible for doing their homework. We have rules and reg for everything and sometimes 10 different rules that contradict each other all for the same rule. People have shown that they are not capable of making the decisions of others and we are each better to make our own decisions about the pursuit of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Unfortunately that means we have to take some bad with the good. I believe that there are far more good folks out there than bad. Just because someone differs from someones else's opinion does not mean one is right and the other wrong nor does it mean one is good and the other is automatically bad. Thank goodnes we have different ideas and opinions or how would we ever learn or get out of our comfort zone?

[tidibole]

First it is not the International that requires addl requirements for breeding it is the FCI of which the International obtains it authority to hold Seiger shows and is only one of the requirements. I personally would love to see the AKC make a CH title only one part of a 3 legged stool. 1. CH for conformation 2. minimum WAE 3 obedience BUT that is like cutting your nose off to spite your face IMO.

I do feel that it is harder for us to understand becasue dogs are not judged against each other but against the standard. I see no difference at all in that some AKC ch are very pour examples of the standard but they did get their CH just not all at the same time. UDC follows much of the same guidelines as the Intl as the dog must have 3 CC (Champion certificates to be consider Ch but in UDC it is a 3 part CH) 1. the dog must first pass a temperament test and two they much have a working title being either a BH or CD for the CH to be completed and awarded. And they can't win from a puppy class as many of the AKC ch are darn lucky that they got it as a puppy because now they are actually oversized but still CH. So UDC allows one CC from the youth class but the final 2 must come from the adult class.

A conformation title should remain just that conformation is conformation and obedience is obedience and temperament is temperament. I don't see it being wise to cross those lines in trying to cram it all in. Then we need a new title like IPO and UDC where the dog is required to do 3 things to obtain the particular title.

In the end we are still trying to bind our opinions on folks instead of letting the cream rise to the top and let the buyer be responsible for doing their homework. We have rules and reg for everything and sometimes 10 different rules that contradict each other all for the same rule. People have shown that they are not capable of making the decisions of others and we are each better to make our own decisions about the pursuit of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Unfortunately that means we have to take some bad with the good. I believe that there are far more good folks out there than bad. Just because someone differs from someones else's opinion does not mean one is right and the other wrong nor does it mean one is good and the other is automatically bad. Thank goodnes we have different ideas and opinions or how would we ever learn or get out of our comfort zone?I think you know what I was trying to say and have added more information which I am sure that many WHO are NOT familiar with this venue would like to understand. However, when I refer to Int'l, I know it is part of the IABCA which in turn is part of the FCI..My championship titles and Passbook (as does yours) validate that. I think we are breaking straws and essentially saying the same thing. Same page , just different paragraph!! But love a lively discussion!!thank you!!!

[Rhiannon]

I think the most important factor to keep in mind when looking for a breeder that you can work with is do the homework. Tidibole and Dobs4ever you both bring up valid points. As someone who has shown and bred dogs for over 30 years I have seen lots of types of breeders out there. And you both are right there are ways to tell if the breeder is reputable or not. The biggest thing I would say to anyone shopping for a new family member would be research......research.....research........ Does the breeder offer a contract, health guarantee, take back program no matter what. And jelly8bean you are absolutely right that reputable breeders almost never have puppies or dogs that end up in shelters or rescues. I also have that stated in my contracts that if the dog does not work out it comes back no questions asked. I get frustrated that on other forums there is breeder bashing going on to the extent that it borders on cyber bullying. I have high hopes that this forum will remain nice. With my avatar you will see that I not only have dobermans but I also have whippets but that does not make me a byb situation. We do show our dogs in AKC events and International and have started UKC events. But we also look for homes that just want a pet and does not want to show their dog. So again homework.....homework.....homework. So just remember not all breeders are going to expect you to show a dog if you purchase from them. Not all dogs are show quality even coming from the top doberman breeders in the country.

[Big Dogs]

As what I would call a layman and again looking at it from the working side of things, there is no easy working title! As I tell my customers I can train your dog to be a cd, cdx, or any Schutzhund title but you have to do the work also it takes two! Any working title takes a team, dog and handler and with out the time and effort on both parts you will not achieve any working title. I have seen and trained dogs with blood lines that would make the queen of England proud but the first question I ask someone is what they are looking to achieve and if they are willing to put in the time also to achieve that goal. If not I tell them they are wasting there money.

[Dobs4ever]

Boy that is correct Big Dog. Time and money -but the BIG pay off is not the title it is the relationship and trust you build with your dog in the process. The understanding and communication between me and my partner - that is really what makes it important. It an exciting journey with your best friend.

[tidibole]

As what I would call a layman and again looking at it from the working side of things, there is no easy working title! As I tell my customers I can train your dog to be a cd, cdx, or any Schutzhund title but you have to do the work also it takes two! Any working title takes a team, dog and handler and with out the time and effort on both parts you will not achieve any working title. I have seen and trained dogs with blood lines that would make the queen of England proud but the first question I ask someone is what they are looking to achieve and if they are willing to put in the time also to achieve that goal. If not I tell them they are wasting there money.
The Int'l Ch is NOT a working title. It is a conformation title. I just put an Int'l on my male last year and this is how it went.. Dogs are judged against each other initially. for example, lets say there are 8 OPEN dogs. All 8 enter the ring stack, etc. The judge both visually and physically examines the dogs, gaits them in a group and individually. He then places them from 1st to 3rd. Then each dog is indivdually critqued in a written form AGAINST the standard, from the judge. It is entirely possible for each of the 8 dogs to acquire an Int'l Ch but ONLY one will win the BREED and move on to group..The first place winners of each sex then again compete against each other for Best of Breed. BB from each breed then compete in the appropriate group and the winner again from each group competes for Best in Show and Reserve Best in Show. AnInt'l Ch can be achieved in ONE weekend assuming that you have a quality dog and are given three appropriate ratings of V-1 for adults And SG 1 for puppies. A Int'l weekend encomapsses 4 shows over 2 days. Dogs are not awarded ribbons but gold stickers are adhered to preprinted certificate and Medallions are awarded for BB, Grp, etc...It is a lot of fun However, the dogs DO compete against each other initially and ONLY compete against the standard for their Championship certification/title.

[jelly8bean]

Yes ,Dobs4ever, I completely agree. Even though my dogs are all rescue,and I will never do confirmation, I have gotten them all PAL/Alternative listing numbers and plan to show AKC obedience and also do some agility. I always had dogs growing up, but never got into the training stuff. It has made so much difference in my life and with my dogs. It is fun and the puppies just love it. I have no pressure to win or even compete, but it really is so interesting and the bond is so much stronger.

[Big Dogs]

I think anyone who takes the time and initiative to at least teach there dog basic obedience even if they never compete will have a happier dog and they will be happier with there dog. It also gives there bond a side that you can't get through affection alone.

[RKCM]

Thanks for that one. I do plan on putting a CD on my dog but having fun is upmost. The relationship build is amazing and it doesn't hurt to have a well behaved dog.

And no title or test is easy. All of it takes work and most the dogs look forward to the exercises. It is all about closer relationships.

Becky