AKC Board of Directors has voted unanimously to proceed with a program for mixed bree

[jelly8bean]

From the AKC Web page:

American Kennel Club - AKC Announces New Program for Mixed Breeds


http://images.akc.org/pdf/MixedBreedProgramDetails.pdf

Interesting Development. Seems like a smart idea from the AKC.
It will bring more people into the sport of obedience, agility, etc. and encourage neutering & spaying of mixed breeds. It will help bring additional income into AKC and obedience/agility clubs.

[Rhiannon]

I recently just read this myself on the AKC website. I agree that this may encourage more responsible dog ownership from the public. I think this is a wonderful program.

[jelly8bean]

I agree this is a way to help the AKC bring more folks into the fold. I think it is a good move. Too many see the AKC as elitist due to the confirmation show stuff, so you need to have more involvement with the overall population to be able to impact some of the larger issues surrounding dog care and ownership. Just my opinion of course.

[Dobs4ever]

I think it is a slippery slope and actually is in direct conflict with the very purpose that AKC registery was formed. It will be interesting to see how the fancy accepts it. I persoanlly am not for it. The purpose of purebred dogs is to be purebred and I feel this opens up a big can of worms especially for all the fly by night off shoot registries.

Maybe AKC needs to make a separate division to open up and compete with registries like CKC, UKC (universal), APR, APRI, and now we have learned that there is a Wide World reg.

AKC should remember what made them successful - They are the premier registry for purebred dogs in American and hold more shows and activities than any other registry.
Instead of opening it up to mixed breeds they need to hold the line and continue to stand tall. Let all the little fly by night registries provide shows for mixed breeds since that is really what they already promote.

I also do not see this as a plus for AKC to obtain recognition with FCI.

[Rhiannon]

These are valid points I did not even think about.

[Dobs4ever]

Rhiannon - When many things are presented just like the AR agenda on the surface it sounds good. But we have to do our homework it is not easy becasue we are bombaraded on everyside everyday with things that bring us one step closer to loosing our dogs as we know them today.

We already have registries that take care of mixed breeds, CKC, APR, NKC, WWKC, UKC being Universal not United and gosh maybe more. They are chipping away at the purebred dogs.

If AKc is a purbred registry then why would they want to open up the registry to mixed breeds? Are we saying Designer Dogs which is the newest fad are worthy of purebred status? I see as as cuting their nose off to spite their face. It really goes a long way in stating that purebred is not important.

Unfortunatley Obedience numbers are way down. People just dont' want to work that hard to actually train a dog and test it for suitable temperament for working. Gosh no that is hard work. I would rathere see them start new programs to get kids interested in showing obedience and learning to handle dogs more than just conformation.

Our dogs would not be in the trouble they are in if that was so. At least that is how I see it and would love to hear any other ideas that might help us get obedience #' up so we can keep our purebred dogs purebred.

[tidibole]

Valid points, and I for one disagree with allowing the entry of mixed breeds. And as you have mentioned, AKC is a PUREBRED Registry, the oldest with only UKC being second. And should remain so...Numbers in all exhibitions are down, largely do to the economy and not the purebred sport in itself...

[RKCM]

Dobs4ever, why are there so few working tests given? Or it seems this way, maybe I'm not looking in the wrong places. WAE are just harder to find. Any suggestions?

[Dobs4ever]

The working test are just not as popular because #1 the dog has to be a WORKING dog. Because this take more human time, money and effort few people are even interested in it and sadly even fewer Doberman people are interested in making the effort. Conformation is so much easier in the long run. I think I said this before but 10 years ago the Sedalia kennel club had 12 that is twelve obedience rings going - this year we had 2 and were done by 1:00.

Again if you look at the #' s of AKC dogs that take the test 30% or less pass. Sad commentary on the strength of our Show Dobermans. That is why so many working people have gone to Europe to buy a real working doberman.

Now why so few - a club is only required to hold a WAE every/o year, have to hire a special judge who is qualified to evaluate it, takes a large area for set up of all the actibvities the dog must complete and money also plays a role not to memtion the that it is expensive to bring in one judge for one event. Just my thoughts on it.

[RKCM]

So each specialty club is required to offer the WAE every other year? I will look a little closer. I guess, if the dog doesn't take the test......you don't know if they will pass it.

Is it true there is no training for it? I looked at the pattern. I would think the reaction to a stranger and the gun shot would be the area that most dogs fail. Is that true in your opinion? Or what point is usually the point the dog fails. 30% is a very low passing point or I would think. Interesting.

[Dobs4ever]

I know each DPCA club is required to hold a WAE at least every other year. I do not think that applies to the AKC clubs because I don't remember our kennel club ever doing one.

UDC had not held a WAE for several years until the last two years when I was show chair. I was able to get them to approve it and was very glad because we were basically full each year, but UDC is not required to hold a WAE since it is a DPCA program and we have to get premission from them to hold it.

It is harder for a very small club to hold a WAE and I think there is some special concessions for a small club who might not be able to afford to hold a WAE in conjunction with their conformation show so that means there just aren't that many around.

If we put more emphasis on temperament then we would have more. DPCA Natls always holds a WAE. I hope UDC will continue to hold as I feel it is a valuable tool.

Training for the WAE - Boy this is like opening pandora's box - But I will jump in and share what I have observed. - If you are socializing and teaching obedience then you are training and preparing the dog to take the WAE because training exposes the dog to different things which builds the dogs confidence. So IMO regardless of what people say they do train for it maybe just not specifically.

If your dog is exposed to loud noises like dropping a pan or banging metal pans together then this gives you a good idea as to if the dog is sound sensitive or not and might have a problem with the gun shot.

Even though you might not be training for the WAE a dog that is training for protection work should have more confidence when confronted with a person in a pancho, waving a stick, firing a gun while running at the dog screaming.

I have seen dogs fail on just about every obstacle except the greeting of strangers. Should you train for the WAE - not specifically - I think sometimes when a dog goes through it the person is the reason the dog failes because they do not know how to properly support the dog and encourage the dog until you get to the protection part.

Then the dog has to step up to the plate.

Again the WAE is an evaluation of temperament. You should learn a lot about the strengths and weaknesses of your dog which would hopefully give you the info needed to help make a better decision when picking a dog to breed to. It is sad that more breeders especially don't use it - There is also the ATTS - that is the American Temperament Test Society which is basically the same as the WAE that you can put our dog through. I did it with Gunner when he was a much younger dog, but again finding one is hard.

[RKCM]

Reviewing this thread, I feel sure the mixed breeds were added to help AKC financially. There are a lot of clubs that are barely staying alive. Currently, AKC was asking of ways to create more income to cover the ever raising costs of putting on dogs shows.

It maybe that we need to rethink welcoming mixed breeds in performance events and welcome them or expect to make this even a more expensive sport.

As far as the WAE, I believe the dpca is revising the test or the selection of evaluators. Does anyone know?

[Dobs4ever]

In reviewing the thread yes AKC did add the mixed breeds and of course it was a financial decision. So now tell me why it would be important to have a purebred dog???? Just show a mutt. They will not line their coffers by betraying the loyal dedicated people who have supported them for years by preserving the sport of the purebred dog. You will not see obedience numbers jump much because they have add this to their program.

They have appointed a new committee that is reviewing the WAE. I know Leslie Carpenter past president of UDC is on the committee. One of the problems is that there are not too many DPCA members who understand a lot about it because they have never done it or worked a dog. They are not really revising the evaluation - they are trying to determine how to make it the same every time presented and for the judges to judge more consistently. There are very few evaluators across the country certified to judge it because conformation people would not know how to read a working dog if their life depended on it. That is the whole point of all shows to test and prove. If you don't do it you don't know.

We are seeing the same thing in health testing people who don't do it say I don't have a problem but truth is they don't know because they don't test.

[RKCM]

In reviewing the thread yes AKC did add the mixed breeds and of course it was a financial decision. So now tell me why it would be important to have a purebred dog???? Just show a mutt. They will not line their coffers by betraying the loyal dedicated people who have supported them for years by preserving the sport of the purebred dog. You will not see obedience numbers jump much because they have add this to their program.

They have appointed a new committee that is reviewing the WAE. I know Leslie Carpenter past president of UDC is on the committee. One of the problems is that there are not too many DPCA members who understand a lot about it because they have never done it or worked a dog. They are not really revising the evaluation - they are trying to determine how to make it the same every time presented and for the judges to judge more consistently. There are very few evaluators across the country certified to judge it because conformation people would not know how to read a working dog if their life depended on it. That is the whole point of all shows to test and prove. If you don't do it you don't know.

We are seeing the same thing in health testing people who don't do it say I don't have a problem but truth is they don't know because they don't test.

Are you saying that people that show in conformation would not know how to judge a working dog on the WAE? I thought a few of the evaluators did show in conformation. Surely, they have a procedure to license the WAE evaluators and since it is a test......why would a test not be consistent?

We have a few mutts that attend the obedience club and most people seem to prefer a registered dog. I assume they are competing now but not seeing it much in this area.

[RKCM]

Here is the link to more information on the WAE. Not many throughtout the USA.

http://dpca.org/awards/wae/wae.htm


Lots of information if anyone is interested.

[Dobs4ever]

That is exactly what I said. I did not say all I said most - There are very very few who even approve of a working dog being shown as a working dog. NO BITE WORK - blows their mind because they do not understand it. Only a couple of the old time icons are left that actually worked their own dogs - Now that Vic Montelone who implemented the program is gone there are even fewer who know what it is about or how to read a dog, let alone evaluate one under these circumstances.

[RKCM]

That is exactly what I said. I did not say all I said most - There are very very few who even approve of a working dog being shown as a working dog. NO BITE WORK - blows their mind because they do not understand it. Only a couple of the old time icons are left that actually worked their own dogs - Now that Vic Montelone who implemented the program is gone there are even fewer who know what it is about or how to read a dog, let alone evaluate one under these circumstances.

"Being shown as a working dog" by that you mean?

So what is the problem with the current program? Consistancy in what? Selection of evaluators? or Evaluation of the tests? What needs to be done to improve it or does it even need changes?

I do think that the more people that understand that test that it would bring more support. From what I was reading, the test has changed over the years without a clear pass or fail observable behavior. Some people train, some don't......what your take on that?

[Dobs4ever]

RKCM - the Doberman is a working breed meaning he was bred for one purpose only and that was to work and protect man. It is the only breed bred for this purpose. All other breeds were bred to guard or herd other animals. Hence "WORKING aptitude evaluation" Vic saw the importance of breeders knowing and understanding correct temperament which conformation does not address. During the evaluation each station is designed to raise the level of stress on the dog to test temperament, by evaluating responses and what each response could indicate ending with the dog having to show it willingness to do what it was bred for which is protect its human.

Conformation you have a written standard, a picture to look at, science of structure and movement etc. You don't have to read and evaluate the dog on the fly, you can see if the dog has good movement or not or if it toes in our out. The problem is complex - we have very few people capable of evaluating this program. As time goes on the top breeders, handlers, trainers who actually understand temperament are passing on and no one to step up. It takes a few years working in protection to understand what you are looking at in different situations as far as evaluating the dog. You have to have worked and trained different dogs to understand the different ways dogs can respond. It is not something you can learn sitting in an air conditioned class room or reading a book. Dogs are complex creatures - reading them is an art.

In setting up the WAE it is important that all dogs be judged equally with the circumstances being as close to the same as possible so you get an accurate reading of how each dog responds as well as what it means based on what that station was designed to evaluate.

I remember when Nancy Christiansen was doing the TT's at UDC Natls - Gunner was right at 18 months old and she made a comment WOW I have never seen that reaction before - she had to know enough about working dogs to evaluate several things to decide if it was a pass or not - set up of the dog, immediate response and recovery time being primary. UDC looks for stable temperament - dogs that can work under pressure, be level headed and use good judgment. You can only evaluate that by testing the dog under pressure. The living room couch just does not cut it.

The way you understand it is to first understand what a Doberman was bred for, study temperament, drives and working ability. Then enter to test the dog. Once you have actually done it you have a much better understanding of why the test is so important for our dogs future. Dobermans are not Goldens - that is why people get their dogs into trouble. They sit back and say my couch potato has a great temperament right up to the time it bites someone. Then they wonder how did that happen???

[RKCM]

Thank you, yes, I understand all this but my question is what is wrong with the test currently, not why we have the test. Sorry you misunderstood this.

Do they have a hands on test? Or a book test? Or who determines qualified?

What are the problems with the WAE test itself?

Isn't Nancy Christensen well known for her dogs as both conformation champions and also, passing the WAE? There are breeders that do both.

I just am thinking that if this is a measure of temperament that all dobermans owners should be educated on this and I know you do know much of this.

[Dobs4ever]

It is not properly administered - it is not standardized - not enough evaluators. Dogs can't read so it is not a book test, the hands on test is the WAE, the WAE evaluator determines qualified.

There is no problem with the WAE as it stands - the problem comes from that point on - Equal setting for all dogs - standardized testing proceedures, qualified evaluators.

Nancy is a long time well know judge for both working and conformation dogs. She does a fabulous seminar on temperament at Natls. I have sat through it twice.

[RKCM]

It is not properly administered - it is not standardized - not enough evaluators. Dogs can't read so it is not a book test, the hands on test is the WAE, the WAE evaluator determines qualified.

There is no problem with the WAE as it stands - the problem comes from that point on - Equal setting for all dogs - standardized testing proceedures, qualified evaluators.

Nancy is a long time well know judge for both working and conformation dogs. She does a fabulous seminar on temperament at Natls. I have sat through it twice.

Now Suzan, we all know our dogs can read. LOL They read me everyday. LOL

To be an evaluator, you have to pass a hands on test? Or a written test or both? Or are they appointed?

Yes, they do need to be qualified if the test is to be valid and yes, it needs to equal for all dogs. What are the suggestions for that?

And yes, Nancy is a very well respected person in both conformation and her famous seminars. It's a shame she wasn't considered qualified... that's is one reason I asked this question. Who determines qualified?

I'm not questioning the validity of the test, just think people should know exactly how it works, how they select qualified evaluators, and why it isn't being supported like it was years ago.....I thought you'd know.

[RKCM]

I think as with all things it is important that the test be understood by not only the working people, but all doberman people, pet people, or show. When that is done, you will gain more value to the test by the public and maybe win over more to the validity of it all. I am not questioning the test, just asking basics.

I'll inquire more and post back to the forum.

[Dobs4ever]

RKCM - the test has full value and the value is not in question, but breeders and owners have to want to use it. Whether they use it or not has nothing to do with its validity as a temperament testing tool that is not in question. Just because people don't want to take the time or effort to learn about it or don't care about the temperament of dogs does not in any way lessen its value to those who do choose to use it. How much is there to study??? The different stations are described on the WAE. The only thing someone could not understand is temperament of dogs and their reaction to the different stimuli the test itself is pretty simple and self explanatory.

[RKCM]

I did not mean to imply the test was not valid tool to test temperament. I do think educating others of how the judges are selected, what is pass or fail on the test, and if training is a benefit are good questions and actually, promotes the WAE. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Rhiannon]

I have been following this topic on Cyberdobes and believe me it sure seems to be a touchy subject for all involved. It is very hard but the one thing I have noticed is that the people are saying that the people currently doing the testing are not qualified enough to properly pass or fail the dogs being tested. As in all things with our beloved dobermans it is a very passionate discussion topic. Any one else know anything about what they are trying to get accomplished or am I way off base here?

[RKCM]

I'm not questioning the validity of the test, just think people should know exactly how it works, how they select qualified evaluators, and why it isn't being supported like it was years ago.....I thought you'd know.

Rhiannon, did it say how the judges are licensed? And yes, I read where that people were complaining about the fairness of the test. Maybe I didn't phrase the question correctly. I really have a lot of respect for Nancy and just was shocked she wasn't considered qualified. Dang.

[Dobs4ever]

RKCM - regardless of how qualified some one is as a judge they still have their own quirks and personal opinions. Nancy is a little different and has had many falling outs with the BOD of DPCA through the years. This makes enemies. I really don't see how she can do a temperament seminar for DPCA and not be qualified to evaluate a dog for the WAE. I will tell you that with every WAE I have attended I have seen judges pass dogs that I did not feel should have passed based on the guidelines. And these are very top qualified judges. They don't like Ray Carlise either and for gosh sakes he helped in the beginning with the program to help get it off the ground.

I think some of it is still the working vs the conformation. Conformation has ruled the world since its inception. BUT in the beginning it was created to enhance the sporting dogs who trialed in their particular field so did not need temperament test or field trials to see if they still retained the ability to do their job.

Because it is easy conformation took off and really appealed to both the audience and the contestants. I prefer to sit in an air conditioned building myself. I hate tracking through grass and getting chiggers, ticks and bug bites. I hate slopping through rain soaked grass knee high - the WAE is an entry level temperament test for conformation folks so they don't have to do the harder work to trial their dogs and show that they have maintained some level of solid temperaments. They don't support it because they don't think the working side of the doberman is that important. Most of them think Bite work is dangerous and bad for a dog. They just don't get it.

There are some things you just have to do to even come close to understanding. You won't learn to read temperament by reading a book. You have to work with different dogs to see how the react and then figure out what it means and how to handle it. The WAE is a tool to give breeders some info about the strengths and weakness of their dog so that they can make better breeding decisions..

[Dobs4ever]

Then I would stop conformation also as you never get a clear concise judging there either. It is all over the board, so we can justify not doing something anyway we want.

It is just like those that don't health test and then say they never had a problem with something - they honestly don't know. That is why we health test - you can't look at a dog and tell it is healthy - you can't know how a dog will react out in strange waters if you don't test. Whether you understand it or want it to be perfect before doing it, is ridiculous - Conformation is not perfect - BUT if you can read your dog you can learn a lot by watching the dogs reactions as it progress through the different stations. The test is really more about you knowing about your dog than a perfect test. So whether the test is perfect or not you still learn about your dog, things that you don't know now, which helps one make better breeding decisions. Whether the judge is worth a flip or not it is about what we as concerned breeders learn about our dog that is the important info and then how we use it in our breeding program.

We do not learn this stuff by osmosis so not sure what having an uncle who had a dog that did bite work would have to do with anything.

You have to work a dog to know the dog. That is why we have WAE, ATTS, BH, Schutzhund to test the working dogs temperament. There is no test that is perfect - there is no system were all judges judge the same and there is certainly a lot of room for interpretation in both conformation, working, obedience etc. that is what causes so much frustration for everyone. It is not a perfect system so all anyone can do is try, it is how we learn.

[Shadowlands]

I can only speak about the CKC as they have opened up select events for mix breeds also. It is only agility and obedience and I believe they are registered but not the way we register purebred dogs. Not all obedience/agility events allow the mixes, it is only limited events, not all.
As long as mixes are given limited access to events, I think it is a good idea and a great boost to raising funds for the club. I think it is smart on a business level to tap into the general public out there with mix breed dogs. It also gives the CKC an idea (for those that participate) what the numbers are in regards to purebred vs mixes out there.
Obviously there needs to be a tight reign of control as to not letting things get out of control and purebred dogs become a thing of the past.
But having read some of these threads, I don't think those on this forum would have a problem standing up and having their voices heard!!! Lol! Dobe owners for the most part aren't exactly known for being push-overs!

[RKCM]

Thanks for the information, Shadow. It is always good to hear about how other countries do things. Most of the obedience clubs are glad they have mixed breeds and yes, it brings revenue to the clubs who are hurting.

Suzan, as you know there are efforts to do away with pure breed dogs and all events. My questions are an effort to gain support, not anything else.

Again the questions are about how the judges are appointed or certified? Why Nancy is qualified to give seminars at the Nat'l on temperament and not be qualified to judge it........and also, why even you were unsure why a dog was passed. Answers to these questions, would help others understand and have more dogs tested....and more support. It maybe that because there are only 9 tests given in the whole USA and only 9 evaluators, maybe they don't need more. But in looking at the very few that even attempt this evaluations, it makes you ask even more questions.

Conformation rings are subjective but the judges are licensed with a procedure that is known by all. You also have a wide choice of who you show under and who you support. The WAE has only a few sites for testing and a very small number of qualified judges.

[RKCM]

I received a private email that the judges of the WAE have a written open book type test and are approved by the WAE committee. I am assuming that is correct. Whoever sent that email, thank you. I don't think that the credentials of the evaluators were ever in questions. Information promotes support.

It was further explains that there are revisions under discussion on the pass and fail issues. All involved wants the pass and fail to be understood and valued by all doberman people. As with anything, there is always differences is opinion but it is there intent to clearly define and give more information to the public. This was mostly to do with the opening of the unbrella and the dogs reaction to that or this is what I was told by unconfirmed dpca source.

Thanks again for the answers to those questions. If these are incorrect, please post.

[RKCM]

I do hope to have Dagger attempt and hopefully pass the WAE. I think it must be a good test or so many people wouldn't attempt it. They say that fewer than 30% pass it. We'll see............? Since there are so few given, it is harder for all of us to know just how it works etc. and why I asked so many questions.

I do think that overall, our dogs are not as sharp as they use to be and frankly, I think that is a good thing. They do so many jobs for man in service, therapy, and on and on........all us want our dog to react boldly, without fear, but don't think we want the aggressive dog that was bred in Germany back then. We don't want them shy either. Not sure that those dogs would survive in todays society. The WAE does measure temperament. Just hope that the drama over the selection of judges, availability of testing, and the information is given more readily to all of the fancy.

[RKCM]

Here is a picture of a dog taking the WAE and failing the reaction to the stranger. Looks clear cut to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3I5ztbHy14


Here is a dog passing the WAE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD6Lx7jzCms

[Panama]

Becky, both of these videos are the same. Can you find the other one? Pleeeeeeease!

[RKCM]

OOps. I fixed it...too early in the morning.:eek:

[Panama]

I watched several of the WAE videos, and I noticed alot of those dogs don't walk very well on lead and are allowed to just about run to the end of the lead and jerk the lead. Constantly circling the handler apposed to staying on the handler's left. Very few actually stayed with the handler, they were out in front of them or when the handler stops, the dog just continues to mill about. Is general obedience not a part of the Eval?

[RKCM]

I am not expert on the WAE but am considering driving to one to have several dogs evaluated. I know you have to take them on a loose lead like you see in the video. They must not have to be obedience trained. I think it's just the reaction to the prompt.

I can see where the umbrella might be an issue. Does the dog just investigate or does the dog just say, oh that's nothing.....seen that....done that before. When your dogs are well socialized I think my dogs would know exactly what it was......they would look though.....??

Seems to me that dogs that have heard gun shots before wouldn't jump...those that hear it for the 1st time would jump....or might. Like when someone comes up from behind you...not sure on that part. I've heard that this is one area they train......so ya have to wonder training or temperament? Kinna confusing here.

The judging does seem straight forward. I think it would be very easy to have guidelines for pass and fail. Does anyone know if they have these?

And I know DAgger wouldn't go with that stranger....he's pass that part. LOL Like I said, I am just learning about this test and still have questions.

[Panama]

I'll have to go back and look, but one of those dogs had obviously at least been started on bite work.

These dogs are 1/2 or full grown... what do you mean they can't be obedience trained? Obedience & leash training starts immediately in our house!
I understand the loose lead, but some of them are literally pulling the handler and have no focus on their handlers at all!

I have no doubt my senior girl could pass this. She is pretty solid. My boy on the other hand, would fail when it came to the Aggressive Stranger. I don't think he'd try to flee, but I think he'd either crouch or lay down beside me and just growl. If the guy got too close, he'd stand, but wouldn't lundge.

[RKCM]

Meant they do not HAVE to be obedience trained, as no they aren't testing that. It is temperament.

The stranger I know they have to go forward, can't flinch....or go behind you....they have to move forward to protect.

I can see where some people would have problems with the test. I'm still learning...and not clear on all of it for sure.

[Panama]

Oh, phew.... thought you meant they couldn't be obedience trained... phew... long day yesterday, brain hasn't recouperated yet! Thank you! :)

[RKCM]

Up at 4 to let dogs out due to the heat....and think faster than I type.....or it could be the thinking. I know what ya mean. My dogs all walk beside me but guess that's not important.

Post more videos if you can find them.

[Rhiannon]

Boy thanks that was really awesome actually seeing some of these tests being done. And I am like Panama wondering how much has been trained into the dogs.....I thought that they should have done better on the lead as well. I was amazed at the two different videos the fail one looked like even the evaluator was confused but the second one at the nationals appeared to be more sure of the whole setup as far as the testing.

Speaking of the nationals is anyone here planning on going to the nationals this year. The dates for the Doberman Pinscher Club Of America National is October 2 through October 9 at the Capitol Plaza Hotel in Topeka, Kansas. If you get a chance to go it really is something else with shows, tests, and seminars etc.