Interesting Question re: frozen sperm

[tidibole]

I recently had a lengthy discusiion with a dobe person concerning this SCENARIO and I would like some imput: Seller sells a 2 year old Male Dobe with wonderful breeding. No titles, certifications or such. But had been bred twice by the original owner. That owner stored FROZEN Semen on the male prior to sale. NOW, the CURRENT owner after paying the $3000.00 not only finished the dog but adds numerous titles to his name. Which in essence had given the dog substantially more worth. The original owner is now selling the sperm..Capitalizing on the current owners financial outlay, and accompolishments, etc. The sperm was never discussed by either party prior to sale..Question...What would you do? Should this be allowed to happen? Or is it a definite case of buyer beware and learn to ask the right questions?

[Big Dogs]

If I am reading this scenario right, when you are dealing with this kind of money those items should be covered in the contract upon the purchase of the dog. First thing I would say is that the original owner if reputable should disclose this at the time of the sale. If you are purchasing the dog and the breeding rights you own all breeding rights from that date forward on the contract. That being said I am not a lawyer, but if I were the new owner and that happened to me I would call mine.

[tidibole]

If I am reading this scenario right, when you are dealing with this kind of money those items should be covered in the contract upon the purchase of the dog. First thing I would say is that the original owner if reputable should disclose this at the time of the sale. If you are purchasing the dog and the breeding rights you own all breeding rights from that date forward on the contract. That being said I am not a lawyer, but if I were the new owner and that happened to me I would call mine.
No it is not me nor am I involved in it...It was somethng that was brought to my attention which in all honesty I never would have thought about as I am sure many other either. I agree with you in that it should have been disclosed but THEN should the buyer have asked? It NEVER would have crossed my mind and I purchased a 3 year old also but from a non-breeder individual...Just something to keep in the back of one's mind!!!!

[Dobs4ever]

Ok I will bite on this one. And I am so glad Tidibole you brought this up as it is a very interesting scenario. This is just my opinion and my opinion only. What you do with your dog when you own it is up to you and your right as long as the dog is not harmed. So if I own a dog and collect him and then later sell him I own the sperm I collected andit is my right to do with as I choose. I see no problem with this at all. The new owner has the dog and she now has the same right. It was her choice to put the titles on him and so it was her place to ask about any frozen semen. If she did not then she just missed the boat. Since we don't know the original discussions or contract perhaps she did know. But whether she knew or not I feel it is the original owners right to hold semen.

Now I will say this - If I had to choose I would breed to the live dog because frozen semen is not 100% viable. You don't always get a positive breeding, the bitch has to undergo major surgery and then try to carry and whelp the litter. It is very expensive for a frozen semen litter especially when the birth rate is so much lower if at all.

[jelly8bean]

Interesting issue.. but just from thinking about it I believe I agree with dobs4ever. Unless something is specified in the sales contract about breeding rights.

[tidibole]

Interesting issue.. but just from thinking about it I believe I agree with dobs4ever. Unless something is specified in the sales contract about breeding rights.That was exactly my point...One would NEVER think to ask that question when BUYING a dog of that supposed quality. You can be assured that if the situation EVER arises, I will put that question forth as should anyone else!!!

[Dobs4ever]

True I would never have thought about it had Tidibole not brought it to our attention. Thanks Tidibole. Hindsight is always 20 20. But honestly who would even think of collecting semen on a young dog with no titles?? Except it was an outstanding pedigree.

[tidibole]

True I would never have thought about it had Tidibole not brought it to our attention. Thanks Tidibole. Hindsight is always 20 20. But honestly who would even think of collecting semen on a young dog with no titles?? Except it was an outstanding pedigree.
EXACTLY and to some people it was an awesome pedigree, obviously, or I don't think the previous owner would have collected it!!! It is however, an interesting thought to contemplate!!!!for anyone putting themselves into a position of buying. and older dog...

[RKCM]

That's something I would never have thought of but it might be a concern. It should absolutely be stated in the contract.

Becky

[Dobs4ever]

Speaking of frozen semen there is an interesting situation that occurred here in Missouri last year concerning frozen semen. A breeder sold a dog to a person who campaigned the dog and put multiple titles on the dog. Before he died she wanted to get some frozen semen and since the breeder lived near the University she agreed to take care of it for the owner of the dog. Move forward 10 years or so and the person now wanted the frozen semen as she had a bitch she felt worthy of the breeding. The breeder refused to let her have the semen. She kept it for herself to sell. In fact she gives no credit to anyone who has owned her dogs. She has the few that are titled listed on her web site as if she trained them and showed them herself.

Now that is about as unethical as you can get. My advise - always have a signed contract.

[jelly8bean]

Wow.. that situation sounds ugly. Now I wonder how this would play out if you imported your dog from Europe? Or would you really care?

[Dobs4ever]

I certainly wouldnot go there. No way to resolve that far away.

[tidibole]

Wow.. that situation sounds ugly. Now I wonder how this would play out if you imported your dog from Europe? Or would you really care?Truthfuuly, I probably SHOULD care but more than likely would not simply due to location..Given it could stillbe shipped but as Dob4ever has made me aware of...a live breeding is almost preferred and probably more assure BUT then I am not a breeder and am not that familiar. Just more or less feel IF I BUY a dog, the semen is mine as well and should have been disclosed by the seller!!!!Otherwise I feel that you are only buying a PART of that dog....

[Dobs4ever]

It is like what you see is what you get. IMHO the original owner had the right to collect and keep the semen and now that I am aware of it would want it included in any agreement which will probably never happen since I am not a fan of frozen semen inplants. Just my personal preference. But a very very smart move on the original owner. I just can't blame them for being very smart. It does bring up a point though - If I liked a dog enough to want his semen then I would want to keep him. HMMMMM wonder why she placed him. One of the great questions we will probably never know.

[tidibole]

It is like what you see is what you get. IMHO the original owner had the right to collect and keep the semen and now that I am aware of it would want it included in any agreement which will probably never happen since I am not a fan of frozen semen inplants. Just my personal preference. But a very very smart move on the original owner. I just can't blame them for being very smart. It does bring up a point though - If I liked a dog enough to want his semen then I would want to keep him. HMMMMM wonder why she placed him. One of the great questions we will probably never know.

It was my understanding that the person who sold the dog was in financial straights and there has also been rumors that he was and is ALOT of dog. I personally do not know the dog but know his pedigree and based on that the rumors could be true! I have also heard he was essentially farmed out to someone who used him to sire 2 litters. Keeping in mind that alot of this is third hand info. Although I have seen his puppies.. I hope someday to see the dog and form my own opinion.

[Big Dogs]

Talked with my neighbor who happens to be a lawyer and a dog lover (labs) who deals with corporate law and said his initial reaction in not seeing the contract would be the seller could be held in breach of contract through deception. Of course the other thing he said was he would advise the buyer to examine what the dollar amount was he felt he lost and decide if it was even worth perusing. He said it could get really expensive fast.

[tidibole]

Talked with my neighbor who happens to be a lawyer and a dog lover (labs) who deals with corporate law and said his initial reaction in not seeing the contract would be the seller could be held in breach of contract through deception. Of course the other thing he said was he would advise the buyer to examine what the dollar amount was he felt he lost and decide if it was even worth perusing. He said it could get really expensive fast.

Thank you so much for that info. That was really my initial thought as well. I would ASSUME that paying for the dog meant ALL of the DOG and I can definately see the potential "deception" aspect or simply lack of disclosure. It is not my dog, nor do I have any involvement but it is certainly something to keep in mind for the future. I can only imagine that there was not a contract but merely Full registration in exchange for monetary value. I have no doubt that the expenses concerning an issue such as this wuld definately outweigh the loss but again it is something to think about if EVER in that position. Again thank you,