American Breeders VS European Breeders

[Big Dogs]

I was wondering what everyone else thought were some of the main differences between the two and If they thought they were going in to different directions? And why we import so many from Europe?

[jelly8bean]

Do you have any stats on imports vs US bred? I am not sure that we do import so many from Europe. I would think there are tons of registered AKC litters every year in the US, not all of who go on to breeding programs or showing.

I do wonder if we get so focused on our own area that we are not as aware of what the bigger pictures is. For instance, my focus is on rescue and it is hard for me to know alot about breeders because of that. I don't do much showing (yet :) ) so know little about the confirmation or working dogs for dobies. It makes it hard to have that big picture, but I'm working on learning and evolving.

If you look at the two mostly widely accepted confirmation standards (AKC and FCI) they are pretty similar. But if you focus on Germany, I bet you get a different story (they are the powerhouse of working breeds it seems).

[violator]

European Standard

ORIGIN: Germany

APPLICATION: Companion, protection and working dog

F.C.I. CLASSIFICATION: Group 2: -Pinscher and Schnauzer type, Molossian type and Swiss Mountain and Cattle Dogs Section 1: Pinscher and Schnauzer type with working trial.

BRIEF HISTORICAL SUMMARY: The Dobermann is the only German breed which bears the name of its original breeder, Friedrich Louis Dobermann (02.01.1834 - 09.06.1894 ). He has believed to be a tax collector, offal abbatoir manager (knacker) and a part time dog catcher, legally able to catch all stray dogs. He bred animals from this reservoir that were particularly sharp. The so called "butcher's dogs" which were already considered a relatively pure at that time, played a most important role in the origination of the Dobermann breed. These dogs were an early type of Rottweiler, mixed with a type of a shepard which existed in "Thüringen" as a black dog with rust red markings. Herr Dobermann bred with this mixture of dogs in the Eighteen Seventies. Thus he obtained "his breed" : not only alert but highly protective working and housedogs. They were often used as a guard and police dogs. Their extensive use in police work led to the nickname "Gendarme dogs". They were used in hunting to control large vermin. In these circumstances it was a matter of course that the Dobermann was recognized officially as a Police Dog by the beguinning of the century. The Dobermann breed requires a medium sized, powerful, muscular dog. Despite his substance he shall be elegant and noble, which will be evident in his body line. He must be exceptionally suitable as a companion, protection and working dog as also as a family dog.

GENERAL APPEARANCE: The Dobermann is of medium size, strong and muscularly built. Through the elegant lines of its body, its proud stature and temperamental character and its expression of determination, it conforms to the ideal picture of a dog.

IMPORTANT PROPORTIONS: The body of the Dobermann appears to be almost square, particularly in males. The length of the body measured from the pro sternum to the ischium shall not be more than 5% longer than the height from the withers to the ground in males, and 10% in females.

BEHAVIOUR AND TEMPERAMENT: The disposition of the Dobermann is friendly and calm; very devoted to the family, it loves children. Medium temperament and medium sharpness (alertness) is desired. A medium threshold of irritation is required with a good contact to the owner. The Dobermann enjoys working, and shall have good working ability, courage and hardness. The particular values of self confidence and intrepidness are required, and also adaptability and attention to fit the social environment.

HEAD: CRANIAL REGION: Strong and in proportion to the body. Seen from the top the head is shaped in the form of a blunt wedge. Viewed from the front the crown line shall be almost level and not dropping off the ears. The muzzle line extends almost straight to the top line of the skull which falls, gently rounded, into the neck line. The eyebrow bone is well developed without protruding. The forehead furrow is still visible. The Occiput shall not be conspicuous. Seen from the front and the top the sides of the head must not bulge. The slight bulge between the rear of the upper jawbone and the cheek bone shall be in harmony with the total length of the head. The head muscles shall be well developed.

STOP Shall be slight but visibly developed.

FACIAL REGION NOSE Nostrils well developed, more broad than round, with large openings without overall protrusion. Black on black dogs; on brown and blue dogs, corresponding lighter shades.

MUZZLE The muzzle must be in the right proportion with the upper head and must he strongly developed. The muzzle shall have depth. The mouth opening shall be wide, reaching to the molars. A good muzzle width must also be present on the upper and lower incisor area.

FLEWS They shall be tight and lie close to the jaw which will ensure a tight closure of the mouth. The pigment of the gum to be dark; on blue and brown dogs a corresponding lighter shade.

JAW/DENTITION/TEETH Powerful broad upper and under jaw, scissor bite, 42 teeth correctly placed and normal size.

EYES Middle sized, oval and dark in colour. Lighter shades are permitted for brown and blue dogs. Close lying eyelids. Eyelids shall be covered with hair. Baldness around the rim of the eye is highly undesirable.

EARS The ear, which is set high, is carried erect and cropped to a length in proportion to the head. In a country where cropping is not permitted the uncropped ear is equally recognised. (Medium size preferred and with the front edge lying close to the cheeks.)

NECK: The neck must have a good length and be in proportion to the body and the head. It is dry and muscular. Its outline rises gradually and is softly curved. Its carriage is upright and shows much nobility.

BODY: WITHERS Shall be pronounced, in height and length, especially in males and thereby determine the slope of the topline rising from the croup to the withers.

BACK It is short and tight. The back and the loin section are of good width and well muscled. The bitch can be slightly longer in loin because she requires space for suckling.

CROUP It shall fall slightly, hardly perceptible from sacrum to the root of the tail, and appears well rounded, being neither straight nor noticeably sloping, of good width and well muscled.

CHEST Length and depth of chest must be in the right proportion to the body length. The depth with slightly arched ribs should be approximately 50% the height of the dog at the withers. The chest has got a good width with especially well developed forechest.

UNDERLINE From the bottom of the breastbone to the pelvis the underline is noticeably tucked up.

TAIL It is high set and docked short whereby approximately two tail vertebrae remain visible. In countries where docking is legally not permitted the tail may remain natural.

TESTICLES In males both testicles must be normally developed and be visible in the scrotum.

LlMBS: FOREQUARTERS: General: The front legs as seen from all sides are almost straight, vertical to the ground and strongly developed.

SHOULDERS The shoulder blade lies close against the chest, and both sides of the shoulder blade edge are well muscled and reach over the top of the thoracic vertebra, slanting as much as possible and well set hack. The angle to the horizontal is approximately 50 degrees.

UPPER ARM Good length, well muscled, the angle to the shoulder blade is approximately 105 to 110 degrees. ELBOW Close in, not turned out.

LOWER ARM Strong and straight. Well muscled. Length in harmony with the whole body.

CARPUS Strong.

METACARPUS Bones strong. Straight seen from the front. Seen from the side, only slightly sloping, maximum 10 degrees.

FRONT FOOT The feet are short and tight. The toes are arched towards the top (cat like). Nails short and black.

HINDQUARTERS: General: Seen from the hack the Dobermann looks, because of his well developed pelvic muscles in hips and croup, wide and rounded off. The muscles running from the pelvis towards the upper and lower thigh result in good width development, as well as in the topper thigh area, in the knee joint area and at the lower thigh. The strong hind legs are straight and stand parallel.

UPPER THIGH Good length and width, well muscled. Good angulation to the hip joint. Angulation to the horizontal approximately between 80 to 85 degrees.

KNEE The knee joint is strong and is formed by the upper and lower thigh as well as the knee cap. The knee angulation is approximately 130 degrees.

LOWER THIGH Medium length and in harmony with the total length of the hindquarter.

HOCK JOINT Medium strength and parallel. The lower thigh bone is joined to the metatarsal at the hock joint (angle about 140 degrees).

METATARSUS It is short and stands vertical to the ground.

HIND FOOT Like the front feet, the toes of the back feet are short, arched and closed. Nails are short and black.

GAIT: The gait is of special importance to both the working ability as well as the exterior appearance. The gait is elastic, elegant, agiles free and ground covering. The front legs reach out as far as possible. The hindquarter gives far reaching and necessary elastic drive. The front leg of one side and back leg of the other side move forward at the same time. There should be good stability of the back, the ligaments and the joints.

SKIN: The skin fits closely all over and is of good pigment.

COAT: HAIR The hair is short, hard and thicken It lies tight and smooth and is equally distributed over the whole surface. Undercoat is not allowed.
...TBC

[violator]

...

COLORS The color is black, dark brown or blue, with rust red clearly defined and clean markings. Markings on the muzzle, as a spot on the cheeks and the top of the eyebrow; on the throat, two spots on the forechest, on the metacarpus, metatarsus and feet, on the inside of the back thigh, on the arms and below the tail.

SIZE AND WEIGHT: SIZE Height at the highest point of withers: Males: 68 to 72cms. Bitches: 63 to 68cms. Medium size desirable.

WEIGHT Males ca. 40 to 45 kg. Bitches ca. 32 to 35 kg.

FAULTS: GENERAL APPEARANCE: Reversal of sexual impression; little substance; too light; too heavy; too leggy; weak bones.

HEAD: Too heavy; too narrow; too short; too long; too much or too little stop; Roman nose; bad slope of the top line of the skull; weak underjaw; round or slit eyes; light eye; cheeks too heavy; loose flews; eyes too open or too deepset; ear set too high or too low; open mouth angle.

NECK: Slightly short; too short; loose skin around the throat; dewlap; too long (not in harmony); ewe neck.

BODY: Back not tight; sloping croup; sway back; roach back; insufficient or too much spring of rib; insufficient depth or width of chest, back too long overall; too little forechest; tail set too high or too low; too little or too much tuck up.

LIMBS: Too little or too much angulation in front or hindquarters; loose elbow; deviations from the standard position and length of bones and joints; feet too close together or too wide apart; cowhocks, spread hocks, close hocks; open or soft paws, crooked toes; pale nails.

COAT: Markings too light or not sharply defined; smudged markings; mask too dark; big black spot on the legs; chest markings hardly visible or too large; hair long, soft, curly or dull. Thin coat; bald patches; large tufts of hair purffcularly on the body; visible undercoat.

CHARACTER: Inadequate self confidence; temperament too high; sharpness/aggressiveness too high; too high or too low a threshold of irritation.

SIZE: Deviation of size up to two centimetres from the standard should result in a lowering of the quality grading.

GAIT: Wobbly; restricted or stiff gait; pacing.

DISQUALIFYING FAULTS: GENERAL: Pronounced reversal of sexual impressions

EYES: Yellow eyes (bird of prey eye); wall eye.

DENTITION: Overshot; level bite; undershot; missing teeth.

TESTICLES: Absence of two normally developed testicles in the scrotum.

COAT: White spots; pronounced long and wavy hair; pronounced thin coat or large bald patches.

CHARACTER: Fearful; shy; nervous and overly aggressive animals.

SIZE: Dogs which deviate more than two centimetres over or under the standard.

[violator]

American Standard (AKC)
The American Kennel Club (AKC). Approved February 6, 1982, Reformatted November 6, 1990

GENERAL APPEARANCE: The appearance is that of a dog of medium size, with a body that is square. Compactly built, muscular and powerful, for great endurance and speed, Elegant in appearance, of proud carriage, reflecting great nobility and tempera neat. Energetic, watchful, determined, alert, fearless, loyal and obedient.

SIZE, PROPORTION, SUBSTANCE Height at the withers: dogs 26 to 28 inches ideal about 271/2 inches; bitches 24 to 26 inches, ideal about 25 1/2 inches. The heights, measured vertically from the ground to the highest point of the withers, equalling the length measured horizontally from the forechest to the rear projection of the upper thigh. Length of head, neck and legs in proportion to length and depth of body.

HEAD Long and dry, resembling a blunt wedge in both frontal and profile views. When seen from the front, the head widens gradually toward the base of the ears in a practically unbroken line. Eyes almond shaped, moderately deep set, with vigorous, energetic expression. Iris, of uniform color, ranging from medium to darkest brown in black dogs; in reds, blues, and fawns the color of the iris blends with that of the markings, the darkest shade being preferable in every case. Ears normally cropped and carried erect. The upper attachment of the ear, when held erect, is on a level with the top of the skull. Top of skull flat, turning with slight stop to bridge of muzzle, with muzzle line extending parallel to top line of skull. Cheeks flat and muscular. Nose solid black on black dogs, dark brown on red ones, dark gray on blue ones, dark tan on fawns. Lips lying close to jaws. Jaws full and powerful, well filled under the eyes. Teeth strongly developed and white. Lower incisors upright and touching inside of upper incisors - a true scissors bite. 42 correctly placed teeth, 22 in the lower, 20 in the upper jaw, Distemper teeth shall not be penalized. Disqualifying faults: overshot more than 3/16 of an inch. Undershot more than 1/8 of an inch. Four or more missing teeth.

NECK, TOPLINE, BODY Neck proudly carried, well muscled and dry. Well arched, with nape of neck widening gradually toward body. Length ot neck proportioned to body and head. Withers pronounced and forming the highest point of the body. Buck short, firm, of sufficient width, and muscular at the loins, extending in a straight line from withers to the slightly rounded croup. Chest broad with forechest well defined. Ribs well sprung from the spine, but flattened in lower end to permit elbow clearance. Brisket reaching deep to the elbow. Belly well tucked up, extending in a curved line from the brisket. Loins wide and muscled. Hips broad and in proportion to body, breadth of hips being approximately equal to breadth of body at rib cage and shoulders. Tail docked at approxinnately second joint, appears to be a continuation of the spine, and is carried only slightly above the horizontal when she dog is alert.

FOREQUARTERS Shoulder blade sloping forward and downward at a 45 degree angle to the ground meets the upper arm at an angle of 90 degrees. Length of shoulder blade and upper arm are equal. Height from elbow to withers approximately equals height from ground to elbow. Legs seen from front and side, perfectly straight and parallel to each other from elbow to pastern; muscled and sinewy, with heavy bone. In normal pose and when gaiting, the elbows lie close to the brisket. Pasterns firm and almost perpendicular to the ground. Dewclaws may be removed. Feet well arched, compact, and catlike, turning neither in nor out.

HINDQUARTERS The angulaton of the hindquarters balances that of the forequarters. Hip bone falls away from spinal column at an angle of about 30 degrees, producing a slightly rounded, well filled- out croup. Upper shanks at right angles to the hip bones, are long, wide, and well muscled on both sides of thigh, with clearly defined stifles. Upper and lower shanks are of equal length. While the dog is at rest, hock to heel is perpendicular to the ground. Viewed from the rear, the legs are straight, parallel to each other, and wide enough apart to fit in with a properly built body. Dewclaws, if any, are generally removed. Cat feet as on front legs, turning neither in nor out.

COAT Smooth-haired, short, hard, thick and close lying. Invisible gray undercoat on neck permissible.

COLOR AND MARKINGS Allowed colors: black, red, blue and fawn (Isabella). Markings: rust, sharply defined, appearing above each eye and on muzzle, throat and forechest, on all legs and feet, and below tail. White patch on chest, not exceeding 1/2 square inch, permissible. Disqualifying fault: dogs not of an allowed color.

GAIT Free, balanced, and vigorously with good reach in the forequarters and good driving power in the hindquarters. When trotting, there is strong rear-action drive. Each rear leg moves in line with the foreleg on the same side. Rear and front legs are thrown neither in nor out. Back remains strong and firm. When moving at a fast trot, a properly built dog will single- track.

TEMPERAMENT Energetic, watchful, determined, alert, fearless, loyal and obedient. The judge shall dismiss from the ring any shy or vicious Doberman. Shyness: a dog shall be judged fundamentally shy if, refusing to stand for examination, it shrinks away from the judge; if it fears an approach from the rear; if it shies at sudden and unusual noises to a marked degree. Viciousness: a dog that attacks or attempts to attack either the judge or its handler, is definitely vicious. An aggressive or belligerent attitude toward other dogs shall not be deemed viciousness.

FAULTS The foregoing description is that of the ideal Dobermann Pinscher. Any deviation from the above described dog must be penalized to the extent of the deviation.

DISQUALIFICATIONS Overshot more than 3/16 of an inch. Undershot more than 1/8 of an inch. Four or more missing teeth. Dogs not of an allowed color.

[violator]

hope this helps :D

[tidibole]

I was wondering what everyone else thought were some of the main differences between the two and If they thought they were going in to different directions? And why we import so many from Europe?OKAY, I will stick my neck out!!!! Just be gentle....
WOW, can we say controversy, the gap is tremendous, unfortunately. There are breeders who are attempting to BRIDGE the gap between the oversize, overdone Euro dogs and the American dogs that MAY lack the drive that many people like or even bone and substance. Both standards indicate a medium sized dog SO why it there such a vast difference in size? I have to question why anyone would want a 31 inch or better dobe with complimentary weight when another breed is also available, the Great Dane. What is admired about the Doberman is simply the agility, the intelligence and the streamlined elegance. I personally feel the introduction of the Arg, dogs has had a beneficial value but if taken to extreme can certainly be detrimental to the breed for many years to come. I have HEARD that the EURO dogs do not have the health issues that we have here BUT then I have also heard that they introduce an entire new agenda. there is an extremely wonderful article in one of the past Doberman Digests adressing this issue between Ray Carlisle and Rod Humphries...As I am sure I have mentioned before, my boy is of Argentinian,(Lex Luther) Dutch (Dexter) and American breeding. Very nice even tempered dog with what I consider reasonable drive but still a pleasure to live with. I have to question how many of the pure EURO dogs can live with the average person in harmony. And that is just a question???.

[violator]

Well my dog lives with me in Scotland and is a PURE euro Doberman, and we get along famously it has to be said.

Although they are extremely rare here as a breed, for example I asked the vet a few days ago when my boys were getting there annual shots how many dobermans he sees/has on his books and he instantly hit back with 'only the one sadly' would explain why his eyes lit up when he seen dino.

P.s the other one lives 15 miles away... gives u an idea how rare the doberman is here, i'm constantly stopped and asked about dino, everywhere we go it happens and always the same things are said ' great to see one not seen one in years... My god there's a blast from the past' etc.

[Big Dogs]

Well here is what seems to me what I am seeing. Looking around at different breeders on the internet quite a few not all but quite a few seem to be advertising that they have imported or have European bloodlines in there dogs as a selling point. I'm not very knowledgeable about the Argentinian Dobes how do they fall into the equation as far as temperament size and drive? I think a pure Euro dog would not go over very well with the Average person in the states I think people in the states are looking for a different type of dog than the people in Europe. In the states with the laws the way they are and the way people look at dogs here they want a more toned down couch potato dog. I think in Europe they have a different out look on what a dog should be ( not saying one is right or they other is wrong just different) more of a working type dog first. My main question was not really the breed standard differences but more along the lines of what the BREEDERS them selves were trying to achieve as far as results from breeding. And are they moving closer to having the same type of dog or not? Again just my opinions and questions.

[magtie]

i'm sure the major difference is their accents

[Big Dogs]

Point well taken!

[tidibole]

Well here is what seems to me what I am seeing. Looking around at different breeders on the internet quite a few not all but quite a few seem to be advertising that they have imported or have European bloodlines in there dogs as a selling point. I'm not very knowledgeable about the Argentinian Dobes how do they fall into the equation as far as temperament size and drive? I think a pure Euro dog would not go over very well with the Average person in the states I think people in the states are looking for a different type of dog than the people in Europe. In the states with the laws the way they are and the way people look at dogs here they want a more toned down couch potato dog. I think in Europe they have a different out look on what a dog should be ( not saying one is right or they other is wrong just different) more of a working type dog first. My main question was not really the breed standard differences but more along the lines of what the BREEDERS them selves were trying to achieve as far as results from breeding. And are they moving closer to having the same type of dog or not? Again just my opinions and questions.Absolutely, our society is such as to require couch potatoes in teh average home. Unfortunately, many unethical breeders jump on the EURO bandwagon and ultimately sell to anyone with no regard to proper placement regarding temperment, drive into the proper home and ultimately those misplaced dogs will end up in rescue or worse. Rumor has it that the Argentinian dogs are "hot blooded" probably not unlike what people conceive the Euro dogs to be. I had the opportunity to speak to my breeder who actually imported Dexter into this country and she was quite candid in her description of him and his temperement. I think alot of buying into the Euro trend is the perception the average person has of the dog and temperemnt and therefore many people want the TUFF dog...without regard to ability to handle sucha dog or the knowledge that many dogs require jobs and thrive on the working interaction. I have both my entire males in the house together and let me assure I do not have a weak temperment or that could not be feasible but they both have some kind of job to do otherwise boredom sets in and tehn...need I say more.... I for one was very sketical when I purchased my 3/4 Euro and find him essentially no different except that he has IMO an eagerness to learn and please that I do not see in the other. It is generally relatively easy to spot the Euro and the Arge bred dog. Unfortunately few Euro can be competitve in the AKC ring but more AKC in the Euro, I AM SPEAKING conformation ONLY. I am well aware from many people that there is tremedndous difference in drive, workability and yes, even conformation.

[tidibole]

Well my dog lives with me in Scotland and is a PURE euro Doberman, and we get along famously it has to be said.

Although they are extremely rare here as a breed, for example I asked the vet a few days ago when my boys were getting there annual shots how many dobermans he sees/has on his books and he instantly hit back with 'only the one sadly' would explain why his eyes lit up when he seen dino.

P.s the other one lives 15 miles away... gives u an idea how rare the doberman is here, i'm constantly stopped and asked about dino, everywhere we go it happens and always the same things are said ' great to see one not seen one in years... My god there's a blast from the past' etc.I am not sure that it is an issue of how well the dog get along with you but rather in unknown enviorment. I guess another point is 'if you took a car to a country that never seen a car" Wow, but that dosen't mean everyone can drive it...

[violator]

well the question was asked how do they get on without a "job" and my boy gets on fine his job is my companion, and house protector but hes happy to lie about but after readin whats been said about american dobermans i would without a doubt say my dog has a lot more drive and here they are looked on as tough, hard dogs, they get serious respect.

and in answer to yourself tidbole my dog in unknown suroundings is extremely alert in in total 'protection mode' as they were originally trained for.

dino is a pet and companion number one, but he is very happy to come forward and be aggressive to anyone who gets to close to himself or me and threatens either my own or his safety, and of couse is 'brother' my other dog.

hope this answers u better but i still dont really understand what you mean.

[tidibole]

well the question was asked how do they get on without a "job" and my boy gets on fine his job is my companion, and house protector but hes happy to lie about but after readin whats been said about american dobermans i would without a doubt say my dog has a lot more drive and here they are looked on as tough, hard dogs, they get serious respect.

and in answer to yourself tidbole my dog in unknown suroundings is extremely alert in in total 'protection mode' as they were originally trained for.

dino is a pet and companion number one, but he is very happy to come forward and be aggressive to anyone who gets to close to himself or me and threatens either my own or his safety, and of couse is 'brother' my other dog.

hope this answers u better but i still dont really understand what you mean.Essentially what i am trying to say is Dobermans are not for everyone and our American dogs are generally with less prey drive and drive in general. In this respect it favorable with all of BSL being pushed in this country. The Euro dog is a different dog than it's American counterpart in almost all respects. I believe any intelligent animal whether a Weim or Dobe needs a job to do and if not then they can easily become bored and left to their own devices cn end in devastation. I am training in obedience with my boy and that his job to keep his mind alert. And honestly I am not sure that any of my dogs would protect me or show any aggression but then that was not their pupose when I purchased them..Who knows until the situation arises..the keyword being "trined for" my dogs are trained for conformation and hopefully obedience..and as I edited this I am thankful that my dogs do not hsow aggression when someone comes near me. But would like to be hopeful if a REAL threat is upon me or him that would be the difference.

[violator]

well you have taken that wrong lol, i mean like for instance if i was attacked (which did happen) and dino protected me, and also if a dog attacks him he will defend himself, i think that defo came across wrong as dino will run up to people tail waggin lookin for attention, but if he senses something is wrong then he will act accordingly and warn the danger away, untill i tell him its ok and then he backs down instantly.

[tidibole]

well you have taken that wrong lol, i mean like for instance if i was attacked (which did happen) and dino protected me, and also if a dog attacks him he will defend himself, i think that defo came across wrong as dino will run up to people tail waggin lookin for attention, but if he senses something is wrong then he will act accordingly and warn the danger away, untill i tell him its ok and then he backs down instantly.Hopefully mine would do that but LOL who knows. They both appear to love people but my Euro bred less so. I am working on that with him..He is my first expereince with a dog that is not primarily American. so all remains to be seen. I just hope I am never in a position where I have to find out one way or another...

[violator]

tbh i was very suprised he done it too as hes normally a VERY happy go lucky dog, just bounds about in his own little happy world, but i did see a definite switch in him when i got attacked.

[tidibole]

tbh i was very suprised he done it too as hes normally a VERY happy go lucky dog, just bounds about in his own little happy world, but i did see a definite switch in him when i got attacked.Thats awesome but I hope that my guys will feel the fear in me, shuld a situation arise and take the appropriate actions....But I still have to wonder. Mine whine unless they can get under the down comforter and YES, I have to lift the covers... ..LOL..

[violator]

lol sounds like dino, if hes warm enough he sleeps on the bed, and if hes cold he sleeps IN the bed ! :P

[tidibole]

lol sounds like dino, if hes warm enough he sleeps on the bed, and if hes cold he sleeps IN the bed ! :PSo I suppose it is fair to say after all is said and done they may not differ that much after all.!!!!

[violator]

seems there VERY alike lol,

but one thing i have noticed about my boy is he is very sensitive to changes in temprature, but i have read up on them and they all are.

[tidibole]

seems there VERY alike lol,

but one thing i have noticed about my boy is he is very sensitive to changes in temprature, but i have read up on them and they all are.Yes as are mine..They have a spring and fall blanket that they wear and a quilted winter blanket. Much like that of a horse. My Weim is far more sensitive to heat..He is awesome in the winter, water and all but the summer is horrible for him...he just completely shuts down..

[violator]

thats the difference here, i can and have done had dino out -10 snow about 4 inches thick and he doesnt care, its when he is in the house if hes cold it upsets me, as i see him shiverin even when i think it aint cold.

[Big Dogs]

tidibole so is an Argentinian dog similar to the Euro dogs is size and temperament? I think you will find even when your dog seems very docile and happy go lucky that when you even feel threatened or apprehensive he will change posture and attitude. When my wife and I first got married she had a dobe already and him and I really bonded one day a guy came over to pick up a ladder from us and he sensed that I really didn't like the guy and stood between me and the guy when the guy asked me if this was the same dog she had owned before and I said yes he attempted to pet him at which time he growled and he said I don't think I will pet him I said that I wouldn't if I were you! Kind of a lengthy story but this is a breed that is very responsive to body language and feelings. Violator I was wondering why you don't see that many Dobe's over there?

[violator]

mainly because of there fearsome reputation as viscous attack dogs and protectors in europe, quite simply people are afraid of them, VERY AFRAID!!

over here as i said people have them for protection and to guard there property etc and they also have the un-just reputation as killers, strike without warning that kinda thing, to own a doberman in the uk comes with a lot of stigma...and a LOT of dirty looks, as there not liked here by the general public as there also seen as a hard man's dog, a gangsters dog, as said above trained to attack and kill which is a shame as there amazing dogs and a breed i have always loved and when trained PROPERLY u wont find a better companion, the time here now is 4:18am and my 'killer' is lying on my bed cuddled right into me as i do accounts (when im not sneaking on here that is lol) and snoring away and growling in his sleep at his crazy dreams...BUT with a paw on me at all times so he knows the split second i move, and he will be right beside me...or...more often than not infront, makin sure everything is A-OK :D

[tidibole]

tidibole so is an Argentinian dog similar to the Euro dogs is size and temperament? I think you will find even when your dog seems very docile and happy go lucky that when you even feel threatened or apprehensive he will change posture and attitude. When my wife and I first got married she had a dobe already and him and I really bonded one day a guy came over to pick up a ladder from us and he sensed that I really didn't like the guy and stood between me and the guy when the guy asked me if this was the same dog she had owned before and I said yes he attempted to pet him at which time he growled and he said I don't think I will pet him I said that I wouldn't if I were you! Kind of a lengthy story but this is a breed that is very responsive to body language and feelings. Violator I was wondering why you don't see that many Dobe's over there?Dobs4ever had a very interesting post regarding the Argentian Dogs at the National. If I remember correctly she stated that Ray Carlisle excused all of the dogs that were over angulated in the rear and too heavy in the front and concentrated on the dogs that were within the standard...She did make that post on this forum...Hopefully she will be able to contribute to this thread shortly. she is at the UDC Nationals until this weekend and then on Puppy Watch. I generally like the look of the Arg dogs...Repo Man was a Lex Luther son. I guess it would depend upon whom you ask. Many refer to them as the flavor of the month. As I mentioned my boy is Lex Luther thru his sire and Dexter through his dam . I do believe they are taller. I would truly like to believe that my boys would be protective BUT...I will say this, my Euro boy is more reserved upon meeting sttrangers as is my other boy. He just thinks that everyone is here to visit with him and welcomes them with open paws! There was an incident a while back which really made me question his (Euro) temperment or my ability to analize the situation. I certainly would take another opinion on it if offered.
I was surprised by 2 aquaintances who were 7 sheets to the wind upon arrival. After a few more Screwdrivers the husband got up to use the restroom. My Euro boy was laying on a chair in the dining room approx 10 ft away from me as we all sat around the table. The gentleman for WHATEVER reason decided to kneel in front of him and put his arms around the dogs neck, my boy's eyes got as big as silver dollars as did mine, he didn't move or show any signs of aggression. I don't mind admitting, I was very apprenhensive, however everything was okay and the man continued to the restroom AS SOON as he released the dogs neck, he came and sat next to me AND when the gentleman retured he stared and growled at him ever so softly across the table. Was I pleased?, you bet But perhaps someone can interpret that in a different way. He can be a bit squirelly but since I have actually started to concentrate on his obedience training I have seen tremendous results in his confidence level. He is very exicted when his collar and leash come into view and that is why I just thoroughly believe some dogs need a "job" to keep their minds active and out of trouble.

[Big Dogs]

WOW putting your arms around a dogs neck with out him knowing you well while he is laying down is a really bad idea. Your dog showed allot of of restraint! I agree with you on these guys needing jobs and the more you work with them the more confidence they have. How old are your boys?

[tidibole]

WOW putting your arms around a dogs neck with out him knowing you well while he is laying down is a really bad idea. Your dog showed allot of of restraint! I agree with you on these guys needing jobs and the more you work with them the more confidence they have. How old are your boys?
You have no idea of how you made my day...I feel the same way, he did show restraint however big his eyes became. And thank goodness for that! My Euro boy is 20 months and truthfully the apple of my eye, even with all idiosycricies (sp) My other boy will be 4 in August. As I mentioned the Euro boy is squirelly and did not pass his CGC, he was fine with all except the handling aspect which was the #1 or 2 exercise. Everything else went well including the loud distraction. I even bought an umbrella to see what his reaction was to that...and he could of cared less...

[Big Dogs]

Don't fret about your Euro boy keep working with him he will get it he just doesn't realize it yet. They can be hard... heads sometimes. We currently have one that we are training in German that would really like to Platz instead of Sitz especially when he hits the grass go figure. Our senior who is eleven and has never been trained in German is doing his commands in German with out any prompting on our part. We always said he was the perfect one ( Slightly anal retentive ) but a great dog! Hard to see him get old!

[tidibole]

Don't fret about your Euro boy keep working with him he will get it he just doesn't realize it yet. They can be hard... heads sometimes. We currently have one that we are training in German that would really like to Platz instead of Sitz especially when he hits the grass go figure. Our senior who is eleven and has never been trained in German is doing his commands in German with out any prompting on our part. We always said he was the perfect one ( Slightly anal retentive ) but a great dog! Hard to see him get old!
He is the character...and I agee it is so hard to see them get old, I had my old rescue boy entered in Veteran obedience at a show and then he started to limp and was diagnosed with bone cancer...Within 6 weeks all was done, never expected that...and yet I have a 13 yr old girl who goes to "Sammy land" after her pill and it is a riot to watch. Just a happy girl in her own litttle world...LOL...

[Big Dogs]

We chase bunny's at our house in our sleep with a little woofing for good measure. LOL

[violator]

We chase bunny's at our house in our sleep with a little woofing for good measure. LOL

my boy is chasing bunnys beside me as i type :D

[Dobs4ever]

Great question - It has been traditional for those who are Schutzhund/working dog puriest to prefer the Euro bred dog. They are a more hard hitting dog certainly than the American Doberman who has been bred down in temperament. The Euros are bigger boned which the standard calls for but they are still suppose to be a medium sized dog.

We just completed UDC Natls and had the wonderful experience of working with a Judge we brought over from Germany - We had to have a translator for our trial - During his visit we asked him about the difference and one thing he commented on is that in Germany almost every little town has a working dog club and have Schutzhund activies all the time. The sport is very active, alive and well in Germany so temperament is a BIG thing there. In American we do not have the availablity of clubs all over which makes it harder even if you do want to participate to find helpers.

We have increased the size over the years as the original standard was 24 to 26 inches for males which is now 26 to 28". If you are dead serious about being the top competition circles in Schutzhund then Euro is the way to go.

The Argentine dogs are more refined but tend to be over done all the way around. May have fabulous temperament for working but that long rear end would never hold up for working. They are noted for beautiful dention and correct size teeth. American Dobes have lost teeth size as they have lost underjaw to support the teeth. IMO - they have maintained bone while giving a more pleasing smooth look to the Doberman than the Euro Dobe but there are great concerns about their tremendous influence since the Argentine fad has blown through America, hence the DPCA put out the laminated standard for all judges to carry in their pocket.

The Doberman is a medium sized, compact, square dog. Long overangulated fronts and rears will not hold up under the pressure of working and a Doberman is a working breed.

[Gryphon57]

Hahaha...@ magtie!

Anyways, I've been wondering as well..besides the accents..heheh..still chuckling over that. I've looked around a bit..not in any rush right now to get a dobe...want to find the right one but I do remember thinking that the two or three Euro dobes seemed to be heavier , more substance..ie: medicine ball to basketball. They also value a dog that can do what it was originally bred for ensuring a sharp mind.
Like my cat...he looks , well, average in size but weighs three times what a cat of equal size would weigh. when he was a kitten the vets would be surprised when they picked him up! I also have noticed that the euros seem to have a deeper rust marking on average then the north American dobies. So, then there is the question of out crossing...which is often good for genetics but you get quite a variety in type going on. I'm definitely thinking of a pup from a mixed stock of euro and north American if for no other reason than health and longevity. I do know this...that all that glitters is not gold. I've had some supreme versions of breeds and often they are so closely line bred that the temperaments and health of the animal suffer. I've also just watched a program on purebreds and some of the things that go on behind the scenes regarding serious issues with structure, disease etc being ignored such as serious problems with king charles cavalier spaniels, bull dogs, pekenese etc. breeding extreme body types that are actually causing such severe breathing issues and neurological problems that I'm ashamed to like pure bred dogs. I love the R. Ridgeback , but truth be told....they are bred to have the ridge which means that some of the puppies end up being destroyed due to the fact that the ridge is actually a deformity of sorts that can manifest with awful affects to the animal. Breeds that can't breath properly or have chronic pain due to physical deformities and then dogs actually winning best of show that have genetic defects and repopulate and propagate the problem...poor unsuspecting owners and most certainly...poor wee pups. I think that there is a lot of damage done to breeds when chasing after the best of the best. To often health and temperament are seriously sacrificed. I'd rather have a difficult time finding that best show pup but have great health and temperaments. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to lose the breeds, just question what we (humans) are doing to them for the sake of a ribbon or outrageous looks. I appreciate a great doberman when I see one...but I want him to live a healthy , long and stable life. I've had two dobes...one not so perfect in conformation..but brilliant in mind and the other...a stunning specimen but with serious hyperactivity, near sighted, and suffered from food allergies. When I say hyperactivity....it was insane. I've had dogs with high drives and working desire that others would call hyper...but that is not what I'm talking about...this dobe was wired at all times..two gears til the day he died....neutral and full speed ahead...sleeping or running.....even if it meant spinning in perfect, tight circles every 10 feet when off lead and heeling. His back feet would land precisely where his front feet were. He'd run all day long , hours and hours....I was pretty active back then , could'nt handle that now. I'd take him to the beach from early morning til 6 at night....he'd finally want to sleep..which meant i had to give him my lounge chair because the ground was just to hard for his royal back side. Fortunately I lived way way up north....lots of wilderness to roam....best partridge hunting dog I've ever known. Surely I digress..anyways....I think I'd like to find a pup with some Euro lines...just newly out crossed.

[Dobs4ever]

Purebreeds - It is interesting to see how many people buy into the crap on TV now about purebred dogs being so poorly bred and major health issues. I believe the vast majority of this stuff comes directly from the PETA headquarters. I know they tremble with excitement when a show like this airs and then whem some of our own buy into it.

Lest we forget there are NO records on health, health issues, longevity etc of muts so it is all too easy to lay it at the feet of breeders who decicate their lives to building a program. I do believe we need to change and make improvements that is always true in anything - but breeders are the ones scrambling to keep up with technolocgy and health testing. It is hard since there are not concrete answers.

The breeders of old were brilliant. Without all the book learning, knowledge of genetics they created breeds that are stunning and breed true to type for us to enjoy today. We have all the technology but sometimes I fear we have missed the artistry involved in breeding. I do believe you can do too much "inbreeding" but know you have to have some to maintain the quality and structure.

The problem as I see it is the problem of placing full breed standards based on the AKC ring which does not address the temperament or working ability of our breed at least. It leaves giant gaping holes and that is why our Dobermans today do no have the temperament to work for the most part or the stamina to hold up under long working situation. As breeders we must show, work and train our dogs so we know what the heck we are doing. The rest is up to science to come up with the answers to help us solve the health issues which personally I do not believe are 100% solovable. I think that is polyanna thinking.

[Big Dogs]

I have been reading this post for a while and have wanted to comment on it again and have written this several times only to erase it because I didn't feel it had the essence of what I wanted to say. When it comes to Dobes in America allot of the emphases is placed on a very refined very out going dog. I think some of this was promoted to soften the dogs image and to gain acceptance to the public in America. Have they been successful in doing this, yes to some degree but I believe it has been done at a cost to the breed. We now have dogs who look good with out proper bone structure which makes them unable to preform the tasks they were originally breed for, it has also put dogs out there that mentally can not preform there tasks they were developed for. Do I believe this is true of all the breeders no some understand and are trying to produce a dog with good bone structure a sound stable temperament and the things it needs to be able to do the job it was developed for. Unfortunately I think this is not the majority. And these breeders may suffer in the show ring. Breeders in Europe are for the most part still breeding the workability in there dogs as this is a requirement which is why I believe is one of the reasons there dogs appear differently and would not do well here in America in the show ring.

[Hali'smom]

[QUOTE=tidibole;3989] Unfortunately, many unethical breeders jump on the EURO bandwagon and ultimately sell to anyone with no regard to proper placement regarding temperment, drive into the proper home and ultimately those misplaced dogs will end up in rescue or worse. [QUOTE]

I agree! A novice Dobe owner or especially someone who has no knowledge of training should not end up with a Euro working dog. Not wanting to fight here...but a lot of breeders here are about the money and the notariety. Euro dogs and breeders are about the work and sport and what they produce.
Hali is 75% Euro but from the USA. My next pup I am looking to bring home in2010 will be from "over seas". I find they do more health testing and most times wait to breed until they DO health test!
I know of a particular breeder here in the US and in ky region (all I am giving away) that had a top CH dog, she bred him young with not all his clearances or some pending and with two litters on the ground he dropped dead at 3 from cardio myopathy. Bad part is she didn't learn, IMO. Another dog she campaigned well, did most health clearances, or claims to have done all, breeds him 4 times like in a two month period...he has DCM!!
BUT- there are some Euro bred dogs that I look at that have way too extreme of a sloping topline. That is bad!! Maybe it looks "cool" or something, but a dog cannot have proper reach and drive or build and that has to lend to bad problems later on.
Also, while I am liking the Argentinia dogs these days I have seen some with spindle thin necks and severe tuck ups.
Well...I guess that's my 2 cents on the subject, but I do most agree with the issue of a "hard" Euro dog ending up in the wrong hands is a great issue.

[Fez04]

reading this kinda worries me a bit, i just purchased a doberman at 10 weeks his father is an American dobie blk/rust that came from an albino mother and blue.. the mother is a solid black euro dobie, omg she looks like a female lion. his brothers were red rust, solid black, and blk/rust.. hes a blk/rust... ill have pics after i get my 15 post in, of all 3 of em!!

[tidibole]

reading this kinda worries me a bit, i just purchased a doberman at 10 weeks his father is an American dobie blk/rust that came from an albino mother and blue.. the mother is a solid black euro dobie, omg she looks like a female lion. his brothers were red rust, solid black, and blk/rust.. hes a blk/rust... ill have pics after i get my 15 post in, of all 3 of em!!
Honestly, an all black dobe, lacking markings? As per the "World of the Doberman Pinscher" by Anna Katherine Nichols..."a solid colored doberman with no marking at all is not subject to disqualification as in the Rottweiler standard . This is NOT because it is any more acceptable in the Doberman ring than it is in the Rottweiler ring , but because these animals have NOT been seen in the in the Doberman show ring for more than 50 years and would be highly suspect as to the purityof their breeding. The judge would penalize heavily or withhold a ribbon for lack of merit in such cases" pge 567. I have personallyseen dogs similar in description although they did have markings they were very muddy and dark! The dogs that I have seen of this calibur been of Euro desent! I would have been a bit concerned about the ALBINO and then a SOLID black! The correct term for this is "melanism" defined as "an all black dog or one with decidedly indistinct markings or tan coloration absent entirely"Should you have an interest in further exploring this rarity you may want to consider the book by Joan McDonald Brearly , the book of the Doberman Pinscher. It is an excellent source for learning! But regardless, the puppy is yours, enjoy him for all the benfits and characteristics that the breed has to offer! And asI had mentioned earlier, many breeders, who are essentially clueless, seem to think that the Euro dog is the way to go. Without the basic knowledge of lines, type and charactristics, and above all TEMPERMENT breeding should be left to those that know!

[Dobs4ever]

The myth persist that Euro dogs are healthier than American dogs yet they all die of the same things both sides of the continents. Euro breeders do not do more health testing in fact perhaps not as much. I have had breeders tell me that they have 8 generations DCM CLEAR so I researched the pedigrees and DOB vs DOD. The dog has 5 dogs in the first 4 gens are listed as Unknown DOB - Unknown DOD This does not say 8 GEN Cardio free to me. This says if you don't know then you don't have to acknowledge.

I don't think Europe has the networking that we do for a lot of info to get out and made public.

When I wanted Euro breeding I went to 2 gen Amer bred from lines I could half way track. We can't bury our heads in the sand and say What I don't know won't hurt me. I know unless you travel overseas and have strong contacts you are buying a pig in the polk. Cardio came over here with Ilena and the 7 sires. Read it on the DPCA web site.

[Big Dogs]

Well here goes my feeling on health testing. After talking to my vet who I have complete trust in for 25 years and since he is on the board at WV school of veterinary medicine and the fact I have never used a vet with better diagnostic skills than him I value his information. We talked about the supposed difference in health between American Dobes and Euro Dobes and he believed it could be attributed to the fact that there are more indiscriminate breeding's here in America which I never thought of. We then talked about DCM testing. He said that some study's have shown up to 25% of some litters can be affected to some degree. He went on to say that there are tests that can be done such as the Holter test but it really guarantees nothing it is only a diagnostic tool and that he has seen dogs pass it and die from DCM shortly there after. He went on to tell me that it actually is more accurate when used on other breeds for some reason. One of the reasons he went on to tell me that DCM is hard to diagnose in Dobes is the fact that there pain tolerance is as he put it incredible high and they have an ability to mask problems longer than most dogs, which doesn't work in there favor obviously. As he put it there is nothing wrong with testing EKG's, ultra sound and Holter tests but it is 10 times more difficult to get results on younger dogs 2 years old and below due to development. When I asked him about hips and having them certified he brought up several interesting points which were hips can go from a pass certification to a fail solely from the way they were shot. Another variable was from the person reading it or the fact they were shot to early. His conclusion in all this to me was testing is great but it is not always conclusive.

[tidibole]

Well here goes my feeling on health testing. After talking to my vet who I have complete trust in for 25 years and since he is on the board at WV school of veterinary medicine and the fact I have never used a vet with better diagnostic skills than him I value his information. We talked about the supposed difference in health between American Dobes and Euro Dobes and he believed it could be attributed to the fact that there are more indiscriminate breeding's here in America which I never thought of. We then talked about DCM testing. He said that some study's have shown up to 25% of some litters can be affected to some degree. He went on to say that there are tests that can be done such as the Holter test but it really guarantees nothing it is only a diagnostic tool and that he has seen dogs pass it and die from DCM shortly there after. He went on to tell me that it actually is more accurate when used on other breeds for some reason. One of the reasons he went on to tell me that DCM is hard to diagnose in Dobes is the fact that there pain tolerance is as he put it incredible high and they have an ability to mask problems longer than most dogs, which doesn't work in there favor obviously. As he put it there is nothing wrong with testing EKG's, ultra sound and Holter tests but it is 10 times more difficult to get results on younger dogs 2 years old and below due to development. When I asked him about hips and having them certified he brought up several interesting points which were hips can go from a pass certification to a fail solely from the way they were shot. Another variable was from the person reading it or the fact they were shot to early. His conclusion in all this to me was testing is great but it is not always conclusive.

You are absolutely correct, although I think the initial intention was to promote better health in breeding programs it has to some extent become nothing more that a tool to sell puppies and/or for a higher price. There is never a guarantee on a living entity!

[Hali'smom]

Couldn't have said it better tidi!! I have talked with several different breeders when searching for my pup, and while some breeders tested to the hilt and others tested only certain things, some did nothing, but oddly enough- most of them still wanted the same price for the pup they were selling!! After a follow-up email from one snooty breeder I had contacted about a pup, I told snooty & very high priced breeder I had inquired from that I was no longer interested in her pup as I bought Hali from breeder "x", she said "Well, let me know when your pup dies!" How rude!! Oddly enough what snooty breeder didn't know is that breeder "x" DOES test her pups and dogs, but just doesn't base her price on testing or color or sex. She goes by pedigree of the mated pair and what the pups expected forte' will be ie.- conformation, obedience, etc.
I think we all know that just with any breed, there are some money motivated individuals out there. I heard one person say to another at this weekend's dog show, "Owning a Dobe is a status quo. How much you paid determines you and your dog's status!"

[Dobs4ever]

American breeders have tried to breed out much of the sharpness of the American Doberman. They definitely are not the dogs of even 30 years ago. Europe has much more access to top working trainers than American. When our German judge was here for UDC Natls he said every little town and hamlet had a working group. They evidently take Schutzhund very seriously over there.

Here it is very hard to even find a good helper to work your dog. I have driven 7 hours to train so that means you don't get to do it as often as you would like.

The serious working folks want a serious dog that can put them on the podium and few American Dogs can cut the mustard.

[Big Dogs]

You are absolutely correct, although I think the initial intention was to promote better health in breeding programs it has to some extent become nothing more that a tool to sell puppies and/or for a higher price. There is never a guarantee on a living entity!
I agree on really never having a guarantee on a living entity, after loosing 2 dogs to DCM close to the same time and thinking I would not buy another with out testing and then finding out that the testing is not quite what it is presented as was a real eye opener. Some times in the quest for information you find out that you know even less than you thought you did!

[tidibole]

I know there are people on this forum that enjoy the protection work and training. There are others that just enjoy the beauty of a dobe and the correct temperment that makes this dog a member of the family without the need to to COMPETE or train beyond the basics in any venue. And then there are those that want strictly conformation and/or obedience dogs. the American breeding is well suited for obedience in that working capacity. As mentioned before, BSL, is definately an issue in todays society so for all rhyme and reason the average pet does not need to have the drive or specific attributes required for a dog of working ability that has been mentioned earlier. It is true in many instances the that the American dobe has been stripped of sharpness once attributed to our Euro counterparts. Times have changed and although I admire a WORKING dog, it is ultimately neccessary to pick the right dog with the right temperment for the right home. most euro bred dogs are NOT suitable for a novice home regardless of any breeder support offered down the road!

[Dobs4ever]

AMEN - it has been one of my biggest pet peeves. The test does not say cardio clear - it says that there were no signs on the date of testing. Yet breeders will promote cardio clear which is very misleading to JQP who is not as knowledgeable.

I know one respected breeder (using the term lightly who says all her puppies are temperament evaluated by her Schutzhund trainer and she does not even have one and does not or ever trained in Schutzhund. So all it not as represented and can be very misleading.

You have to ask questions.

I agree on really never having a guarantee on a living entity, after loosing 2 dogs to DCM close to the same time and thinking I would not buy another with out testing and then finding out that the testing is not quite what it is presented as was a real eye opener. Some times in the quest for information you find out that you know even less than you thought you did!

[RKCM]

Here are some of the things that are clearly different.

1. German spells the name Dobermann, American is Doberman
2. American standard says nothing about weight, German says up to 99 lbs.
3. German allows 29 inches, American says ideal is 28.
4. Germans disqualify a dog with missing teeth, Americans disqualifies with 4 or more missing.
5. Germans do not recognize blue or fawn, American allows black, red, blue & fawn
6. There is also a difference is how the two define temperament.
7. Structure is different in appearance and wording.

Just thought this thread was of interest since we have friends from across the pond, as Panama says. LOL.

[Shadowlands]

If you look at some of the older lines from say 30 years ago and compare them to the Euro dogs of today, there are a fair amount of similarities. I will say that I do like the more square shape of the muzzle compared to the more pointed or refined look of the north american Doberman of today. Just my opinion of course. I feel the perfect Doberman would be the north american temperament and size with a bit more muscle mass of the Euro.
As for Schutzhund, it doens't matter the breed, each dog has to be assessed as to whether it would be suitable. I believe a Chesepeake Bay Retreiver holds the record for being the most decorated in Schutzhund (not sure that record still holds as it was quite a few years ago). As for a trainer saying aye or nay to a pup being perfect for this sport is bull.
another 'breeder' on the gravy train.

[RKCM]

:eek:I can't believe Chris or Paul hasn't chimed in on this thread. LOL

[Panama]

We can't bury our heads in the sand and say What I don't know won't hurt me.

Huh? How is it possible to say one thing in one place and say totally the opposite in another place? If a dog is bred with a KNOWN health issue, and brushed off as something else, and told it's no one else's business but the breeder's, is that not burying your head in the sand?

[RKCM]

It's is everyone business when you care about the breed. I don't think you're confused, Panama....just caring. Thanks for all you do with the rescues and to support right. With the internet, word travels fast and you're appreciated. AnD WE all know that you always speak for the dogs no matter who owns them....or threw them away.....on DH we know your in it for the dogs.....that's what matters really.

I still can't believe Chris or Paul is not all over this thread.....they must be sleeping across the pond. Maybe we need to talk.....NFL ....Go Dallas Cowboys!

[Paul]

Hello Friends. Firstly, I only have Shiloh 12 months, she is the reason that I want 2 more Dobes. Now, this health check business is very important, I know, but speaking from an Irish point of view our Dobes dont die from any similiar illnesses to that of our US brothers and sisters. In my reasearch to purchase my next pup I spoke to at least 9 Breeders here, illness and inherited diseases never came into the conversation, simply, because they are virtually non existant. We, have a very healthy Dobermann population here, and all the necessary health checks are still carried out in order to maintain a healthy breed. From my experience in chatting with owners all over da world, especially in the US it is my opinion that the EU Dobermann is most popular. There seems to be a lot of different, colours, height, build, weight, and general appearance coming from the US. That is the breeding that has evolved from the US, imo. Wereas, here on this side of da pond, we have standard Louis Dobermann traits. Id really like to see some records of imported EU Dobes v Homebred US Dobes, based in the US. As for difference in spelling, and proununciations, it's no big deal, if you look at the English language in general Americans have slipped in their own version of words right across da board, it really doesn't bother me. 1 N or 2 N's, its still a Dobermann.

[RKCM]

Thanks Paul, appreciate other points of view.

My English friends always give us a hard time on English in the US...lol.

[Shadowlands]

I have been doing some research regarding Euro Dobes and they do the same testing as we do including posting the VwD results. Can't imagine they would post information they didn't require or test for health issues that don't exist. that is just my opinion of course on the information they have supplied.
Although I have only looked into a dozen or so, they all did the same testing etc and those are ones from Britain, Germany and Austria. But from what I have seen, Euros aren't necessarily more healthy than ours, at least them testing for the same diseases suggests that.

[Rhiannon]

Huh? How is it possible to say one thing in one place and say totally the opposite in another place? If a dog is bred with a KNOWN health issue, and brushed off as something else, and told it's no one else's business but the breeder's, is that not burying your head in the sand?


Boy I was not sure where to exactly post my response on this one. Should I post here or what is the other thread we have going? It really does not fly with me when...... a breeder pretends to be all perfect with no faults at all but then when you do your research you find that they have bred white dobermans, dogs with CAH and is not all they have represented themselves to be. But are very quick to cast stones at others. Oh well......I am right there with you Panama. This is what I call double standards....you know do as I say not as I do...........:mad:

[Hall's Dobes]

I have been doing some research regarding Euro Dobes and they do the same testing as we do including posting the VwD results. Can't imagine they would post information they didn't require or test for health issues that don't exist. that is just my opinion of course on the information they have supplied.
Although I have only looked into a dozen or so, they all did the same testing etc and those are ones from Britain, Germany and Austria. But from what I have seen, Euros aren't necessarily more healthy than ours, at least them testing for the same diseases suggests that.

Hello all,
Sorry been busy working with the fur-kids this w/end but i will start to comment.
Firstly the problem that always exsists here is National pride, so you will get someone in France who will not communicate with somone in Germany say? Then there is a factor that we all have seperate governing bodies that we report too.As in America you have 2, we all have sepreate KC's to answer to and different standards too.As a Dobe in England will be slightly different to one in say Slovakia.There is a big problem with all the KC's talking to each other.
As in regards to whom produces the best standard,well here comes the National pride bit again dosn't it?? So i will say nothing on that so not to offend anyone from all walks of the globe. I myself have a 2 Americans and one Euro,and they are miles apart in charactor and presentation. I always believe that the Euro is more intelligent as demonstrated to me over and over again,but the American i believe has more presence.Hmm maybe that is my own opinion,but each to there own on the matter.
If you asked me which would i choose in the Pepsi taste challenge ,im sorry i could not lean to anyone of them as i find them all irresistable for sure.the Euro does have the better blood lines and seems to suffer from less inheritant problems as the American,this is the only thing i think seperates the 2.Or maybe it is because you Americans are more forthrite and open with information where we clam up i suppose!

[RKCM]

Chris, it depends on which American you are talking to.....some shared information and some don't.

[Hall's Dobes]

Right ok,thanks for that Becky,its just i saw the North American Breeders as more open with there case histories or am i wrong with that impression?Or does it depend on the individual breeder if they have something to hide?:confused:

[Rhiannon]

Becky is right. It depends on which breeder you talk to there are some awesome breeders out there who don't hide anything. Thing is if more of the breeders were honest and told what their line produced then we might begin to work towards a common goal of doing all possible to eliminate some of the severe health issues in the breed. I have been involved in two different breeds and find this to be true no matter what breed involved with. We have breeders here that would euthanize entire litters of puppies to hide the fact that they bred a problem. This is absolutely true. So in reality it is a matter of who cares enough to help the breed by being honest or who believes it is better to hide the fact. :(

[Paul]

Boy I was not sure where to exactly post my response on this one. Should I post here or what is the other thread we have going? It really does not fly with me when...... a breeder pretends to be all perfect with no faults at all but then when you do your research you find that they have bred white dobermans, dogs with CAH and is not all they have represented themselves to be. But are very quick to cast stones at others. Oh well......I am right there with you Panama. This is what I call double standards....you know do as I say not as I do...........:mad:

I have come across some of those breeders u speak about, they come across as the real deal, and after spending some time listening to them I realise that they are 2 faced ass holes who are only out for the money. That is mostly the reason I went to the UK to get my next puppy...........

[RKCM]

Paul, we all love ya but there are crooks in all countries- nothing exclusive to the US. It is the opinion of some, that some of the dogs outside the US hid health issues. I really don't know that as fact or fiction. It could happen anyway.

People that lie to sell dogs will happen and it depends on who you are dealing with. With the internet and age of information, word travels fast. You just have to not rush into a dog with just anyone. There are even some people that will try to push their dogs on forums.....most reputable breeders wouldn't do that. Just my opinion.

[Shadowlands]

If you look at some north american breeders sites, they don't mention any testing, longevity of past get etc. But I am sure the same can be said of any breed. In every breed there are going to be the occassional bad apple. I have found most north american breeders to be upfront in regards to health testing and not breeding/against Z factor Dobes. I personally have nothing against Euro Dobes. I would love to have the perfect mix of north american and euro as I feel that would be perfect. Lol! Guess that would be refined braun?

[RKCM]

It all depends on who you are dealing with, I guess......not the country....pacifically. Interesting discussion.

Dobequest give the date of death and testing if you are a member. It is on the honor system though and as far as I know it's correct.

[Shadowlands]

The testing is not a guarantee and as far as I know, never has been. The testing is there to help increase the odds against getting those diseases. Pedigrees and looking at line longevity also helps but most puppy buyers are not going to go to that degree. Those tests are affective when used with all other information in order to make a more educated choice of breeder and/or genetic line.

[RKCM]

Unless you test, you really don't know about the dogs being bred. Ethical breeders test and it gives you be clues on who is most likely to produce healthy pups. Vwd can give you exactness. Holters tell you about the dogs being bred. With the current health of the dogs, it is important we do all we can to improve the health of our breed. Too many are dropping dead at way too early of an age.

If you don't have longivity, there is more to question.

Nothing is exact, but at least it gives you information about the dogs being bred and who is wanting to produce healthier dogs. If they aren't testing, they are not ensure the parents health. It just isn't worth the risks for me.

Years ago the old breeders didn't test. We have changed over the years with dobermans dropping dead of an early age. It is important.

[Paul]

Becky, what was the mortality rate like years ago.? I mean when the Breed was young in both the US and EU.? Im thinking that maybe with the introduction of a lot of dog foods, recipes, etc, that maybe it could be as a result of certain foods. I didnt know about the big business of Dog food until we got Shiloh, jeez, there is a lot of business out there for the right kind of food to suit Dobes. I remember years ago, say 20, there was a powder here which Greyhound owners gave their Hounds. It was called "bonemeal", it was ground down animal offall, it really was for Farmers to put on the land to enhance growth, but it was alleged it was great for developing bones in dogs. But, later, when we had "foot and mouth disease"here it was found out that this meal was a contributing factor to this disease. So, now it's banned, they dont use it at all now, because they realised that it was the entrails of animals which was ground down into powder etc. So, would wrong food, bad diet, have anything to do with the problems with Dobermanns, surely it must be a contributing factor.? Or is it as already stated "illness from the pedigree", handed down.

[Paul]

I mean what causes a perfectly healthy Dobermann to pass in it's sleep, no sickness, if it's not in the Ped, then what is the cause.? Surely, wrong food, bad food is a contributing factor. We all know about a pup coming with a hidden disease, but what if the pup is healthy, why and how does it pass.? Especially, if it gets the best of treatment,at the end of the day we dont know what goes into our Dobes food.

[Paul]

Shadowlands is correct imo, at the end of the day the health test is a tool in which to sell that litter quicker than normal. But, it's up to the new owner to maintain that pup in a healthy fashion in order to keep that puppy living life to it's capabilities. imo

[Shadowlands]

I don't know that I would agree with the 'sell that litter quicker than normal' part, but look at it from only a buyers point of view. Without some testing regardless of what it is, how would you know who was good and is breeding for the breed not their pockets? All reputable breeders do testing. BYB don't, most wouldn't even know what tests to do. They don't care. The health testing is a tool, that I agree with. A tool, not a guarantee. Like I said, testing should be used as well as information on longevity etc.in order to find the right breeder. I also look at whether a breeder works their dogs (obedience, schutzhund etc), not just conformation. But that is because of what I am l personally looking for in my dogs, not what makes a better doberman per say.
I do agree that the new owner is responsible to maintain health, not just physically, but mentally also.
In this area, most breeders require the participation of the O'Grady study in Guelph as a part of their contract.

[Heretic]

There is no test for wobbler's (CVI), and yet a *well known* breeder who's been around for many years has been seen with with a dog in the show ring that had wobbler's so bad the tops of its toes were raw (IN the show ring!). And because of politics no one said a word.

Ultimately one can only depend upon the transparency and ethics of any given breeder.

[RKCM]

There is no test for wobbler's (CVI), and yet a *well known* breeder who's been around for many years has been seen with with a dog in the show ring that had wobbler's so bad the tops of its toes were raw (IN the show ring!). And because of politics no one said a word.

Ultimately one can only depend upon the transparency and ethics of any given breeder.

The judge is required to excuse a dog that is lame and I don't think that would fly in AKC venues. Was the shows AKC and who was the judge?

There is a test for wobblers to determine if the dogs has it, but unfortunately it is very expensive. Without the test, it is impossible to know if the dog has an injury to the neck or spine or has wobblers....or this is what I have been told. But a crippled dog is just that and sure wouldn't win in my area by any judge.

[Heretic]

The judge is required to excuse a dog that is lame and I don't think that would fly in AKC venues. Was the shows AKC and who was the judge?

There is a test for wobblers to determine if the dogs has it, but unfortunately it is very expensive. Without the test, it is impossible to know if the dog has an injury to the neck or spine or has wobblers....or this is what I have been told. But a crippled dog is just that and sure wouldn't win in my area by any judge.

Can this test for CVI be done before the dog develops/indicates wobbler's?

I've experienced wobbler's with my own dogs when I had the strictly American show lines, and it isn't pretty. From what I understand different dogs show it in different ways, but the two I had (dam and son) showed the exact same symptoms.

I don't know who the judge was and don't know the venue of the example I cited, but my source is extremely reliable and has no ax to grind.

[RKCM]

Can this test for CVI be done before the dog develops/indicates wobbler's?

I've experienced wobbler's with my own dogs when I had the strictly American show lines, and it isn't pretty. From what I understand different dogs show it in different ways, but the two I had (dam and son) showed the exact same symptoms.

I don't know who the judge was and don't know the venue of the example I cited, but my source is extremely reliable and has no ax to grind.

I have never had a dog with wobblers but here is the link that explains the test required:

http://www.dpca.org/PublicEd/PEC/PECGeneticCVI.html

I would imagion that this was not an AKC judge, as it is required that a crippled dog be excused. Shame on the exhibitor and judge for allowing that and shame on the fancy for not reporting it to the rep. As an AKC judge, I would guess that this was not an AKC show or it was just sour grapes. AKC shows have a higher quality of champions than some of the other venues. Crippled is just that and isn't ok in any breed, especially a working breed. Dogs with wobblers stumple and can't really get around the ring very well and not something that would be missed in the ring. I just find it not very likely that someone would want to spend thousands of dollars to present a dog with wobblers and don't know any judges that wouldn't recognize wobblers.

Any dog can have wobblers and it is not just American show lines. It can happen in a Euro dog or a poorly bred pet just as easily.

[Heretic]

I have never had a dog with wobblers but here is the link that explains the test required:

dpca.org/PublicEd/PEC/PECGeneticCVI.html

I would imagion that this was not an AKC judge, as it is required that a crippled dog be excused. Shame on the exhibitor and judge for allowing that and shame on the fancy for not reporting it to the rep. As an AKC judge, I would guess that this was not an AKC show or it was just sour grapes. AKC shows have a higher quality of champions than some of the other venues. Crippled is just that and isn't ok in any breed, especially a working breed. Dogs with wobblers stumple and can't really get around the ring very well and not something that would be missed in the ring. I just find it not very likely that someone would want to spend thousands of dollars to present a dog with wobblers and don't know any judges that wouldn't recognize wobblers.

Any dog can have wobblers and it is not just American show lines. It can happen in a Euro dog or a poorly bred pet just as easily.

That link confirms what my vet told me - there's no test which detects CVI prior to a dog showing symptoms (unless/until there's a test which can detect CVI in DNA). So essentially some breeders will continue to breed dogs which have Wobbler's, despite performing every single health test available (many doing so unintentionally/unknowingly, however having a short memory facilitates the rest).

[RKCM]

That link confirms what my vet told me - there's no test which detects CVI prior to a dog showing symptoms (unless/until there's a test which can detect CVI in DNA). So essentially some breeders will continue to breed dogs which have Wobbler's, despite performing every single health test available (many doing so unintentionally/unknowingly, however having a short memory facilitates the rest).

Ethical breeders know their lines and do not use dogs that have a history of Wobblers or other faults that affect their health.

Essentially, we will always have breeders that refuse to test for anything or breed albinos that are known to have health problems.
It takes all kinds to make this world, I guess. Some make it better and others leave behind a mess.

Longivity in lines speaks for itself.

[RKCM]

What's a breeder to do if they are using frozen semen collected from a dog 15 years ago and the only test which was commonly done at the time was having the hips OFA'ed?

As for longevity, my dogs are working dogs first and foremost and pets/companions second, therefore IMO if a working Dobermann lives to be nine (which is the point they become geriatric) without major health issues that's all I can ask for and all I expect. So far the bloodline we're carrying on with now has consistently resulted in dogs living to about 10 years old, although some have lived longer.

My nine year old has some tumors going on, and there is no way I'm going to subject her to surgery at this age, I'm just going to let nature run its course. And when it's time for me apply the needle of mercy I'm not going to hesitate.

Breeders that have frozen semen on their dogs, usually have tested the puppies giving clear indications. Few would use frozen semen without documentation of longivity and many of the health issues of that dog.

There is a list on the dpca for longivity. It is an important tool.

When the tumors are caught early, it isn't hard to have them removed at any age. Some can be given a local. Putting a dog down is always a sad thing but if the dog is in pain or suffering, it is the last thing you can do for them.

Most of us consider our dogs our family first and then, we find the job that fits them best.

[Fonfy]

I'm sure you know my opinion on this topic:D


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