Interwiew w/ Trainer Today

[Sue J]

We had a phone interview today and this obedience trainer is willing to come to my home for sessions, until she gets group going. She's new to the area and is about 40 min. from me. I think we might get along and I liked her responses about methods, etc. but I have a question. When I asked her what her certification(s) were she said that she was trained by a Virginia Beach K-9 instructor who trained K-9 for 35 years and she was certified through PetSmart where she worked for 10 years. What knowledge base could I realistically expect from a PetSmart instructor? I know now I should have asked her what was involved in her training, but I didn't get it in on this first call (more are planned and a meet if we want). I haven't hired an obedience trainer for 25 years and she was a member of a local canine club and I knew of her and was referred to her by our vet then. I know a lot has changed since then.

[tidibole]

We had a phone interview today and this obedience trainer is willing to come to my home for sessions, until she gets group going. She's new to the area and is about 40 min. from me. I think we might get along and I liked her responses about methods, etc. but I have a question. When I asked her what her certification(s) were she said that she was trained by a Virginia Beach K-9 instructor who trained K-9 for 35 years and she was certified through PetSmart where she worked for 10 years. What knowledge base could I realistically expect from a PetSmart instructor? I know now I should have asked her what was involved in her training, but I didn't get it in on this first call (more are planned and a meet if we want). I haven't hired an obedience trainer for 25 years and she was a member of a local canine club and I knew of her and was referred to her by our vet then. I know a lot has changed since then.
I have to admit that I am curious as to what type of Certifiication a trainer for PetSmart requires? On the rare occassions that I have been there and actually witnessed their trainiing classes, they allow Haltis, buckle collar but do not allow c-chains of any type, and the areas are so small but the prices per course certainly arn"t. I would be very interested to know when you find out. thanks

[Big Dogs]

Sue J I'm also curious about the trainer certification at pet smart. Most of the signs I see there are for puppy classes. Well the first thing a qualified trainer should do is actually interview you! To see if her skill sets are capable of meeting your needs. Here is some of the things that she should ask you. What type of dog do you have, what is it that you are looking to achieve, does your dog have any aggression issues with people or other dogs, and is your dog up to date on his shots, and most importantly asking if you are prepared to do homework with your dog. Also she should come over before she is hired for and evaluation process of your dog in which she should work with your dog in front of you and explain why she is doing what she is doing. Ask if she is a member of the National K-9 Dog Trainers Association. It all boils down to watching her work with your dog and you and if you like what you see! There is many different ways of working with dogs and everyone has a different philosophy on how to achieve there goals and most are affective, it's all in what you are comfortable with.

[tidibole]

Sue J I'm also curious about the trainer certification at pet smart. Most of the signs I see there are for puppy classes. Well the first thing a qualified trainer should do is actually interview you! To see if her skill sets are capable of meeting your needs. Here is some of the things that she should ask you. What type of dog do you have, what is it that you are looking to achieve, does your dog have any aggression issues with people or other dogs, and is your dog up to date on his shots, and most importantly asking if you are prepared to do homework with your dog. Also she should come over before she is hired for and evaluation process of your dog in which she should work with your dog in front of you and explain why she is doing what she is doing. Ask if she is a member of the National K-9 Dog Trainers Association. It all boils down to watching her work with your dog and you and if you like what you see! There is many different ways of working with dogs and everyone has a different philosophy on how to achieve there goals and most are affective, it's all in what you are comfortable with.Interestingly enough I had quite a discussion with someone who preferred nothing but the positive method of training. Her entire philospy did not incorporate collars of any kind. Personally I found it to be bizarre and without validation. Perhaps some breeds can be suseptable but I do not feel dobes are one of them.. Although when I initially started trainnig I was trained to the Koehler method (by an AKC obedience judge) as now is very outdated in many aspects...HOWEVER, I do not feel that a doberman is tempermentally suitable to just positive training. I do believe in rewarding, etc but I also feel that much like us, when we go to work, we aren't working for a pat on the back but rather a paycheck at the end of the week I always equate dog traing and rewarding with the end results of that most desired paycheck!!!I utilize food, praise and more recently toy drive to accompolish the desired results...Surely one of them work!!!

[Big Dogs]

Your right a Dobe should not be what I would call man handled. I do believe in positive reinforcement and I believe in food rewards early in training. After the early training I want the dog to work for me not for food rewards. Again this is only my opinion but here is something to look at the next time you go to a obedience show. Watch the competitors before they enter the ring and look at what some of the competitors are doing with food before they enter. Sticking it in there mouth so the dog will pay attention to them, in there pockets and so on. There is no short cut for hard work and it takes both the handler and dog to accomplish there goals. A dobe is a unique animal to train in the fact that they will test you from the minute they enter your home to measure you up and see where you are going to fall in there eyes. Tidibole in my opinion you are spot on when you said they are not suited to just positive training! Dobes need a firm hand at times this is a powerful dog that is also very intelligent. You have to be there leader before you can become there friend if you are going to be successful!

[jelly8bean]

I think the most interesting thing to validate with your trainer is what titles she has put on what dogs. This helps alot to separate the real trainer from the good with animals. It also helps to understand how they might interact with your dog. If the trainer has put obedience titles on a golden, they might not be as familiar with how to work a rottie. Not to say they aren't good trainers, but it helps to have some other background.

On another note, I have been training both my dobies and my rottie will all positive training as I understand it. (Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson) And I have used a Gentle leader as well (as a training device). I find it very successful with all of them. The point of positive training is not that there is no "correction", but the punishment is withholding reward - a negative punishment. You only reward behavior you want, and you ignore (withhold reward) behavior you want to end. I don't see how this would be associated with no collar at all, but whatever.

[tidibole]

I think the most interesting thing to validate with your trainer is what titles she has put on what dogs. This helps alot to separate the real trainer from the good with animals. It also helps to understand how they might interact with your dog. If the trainer has put obedience titles on a golden, they might not be as familiar with how to work a rottie. Not to say they aren't good trainers, but it helps to have some other background.

On another note, I have been training both my dobies and my rottie will all positive training as I understand it. (Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson) And I have used a Gentle leader as well (as a training device). I find it very successful with all of them. The point of positive training is not that there is no "correction", but the punishment is withholding reward - a negative punishment. You only reward behavior you want, and you ignore (withhold reward) behavior you want to end. I don't see how this would be associated with no collar at all, but whatever.I have heard a great deal about the method you are referring too but then I guess I just believe there should be consequences for ill behavior and I don't think withholding a treat is in my line of thought but again that is just opinion. I don't think that bad hevavior should be ignored in children and good behavior rewarded and I don't feel that it suitable for dogs especially those that need a sense of direction from the git go...One of my boys is very unruly when allowed to play and has at times, jumped and grabbed my shoulder not unlike what Sue had indicated, I reprimanded NO, several times and then The BIG ONE came, I grabbed his collar and brought him to the ground and held him there until he was understanding that NO meant NO...to this date, he does not attempted anymore of that jumping. He weighs 88# and I weigh 105# not that much of a difference...thats why I believe every person knows or should know their dog and push the right buttons to make the correction that is needed...how could I have ignored that behavior without blood and rewarded when he was a good boy??I feel he definately need to understand that was unacceptable behavior and would not be tolerated at any expense...

[Big Dogs]

Jelly you brought up another good point in asking if the trainer has put any obedience titles on a dog.Although do not discount a trainer if they have not I know of several trainers that are credentialed and have taught 1000's of dogs what they need to title a dog but are not at all interested in doing so. A truly good trainer knows how to adapt there style to the breed and the inherent traits of those breeds and how to deal with them. Most dogs are food oriented but you do come across some that food is not a strong incentive and do not care to play. Every situation and dog is different a good trainer is a person that can get the dog and owner to work together. A true trainer is not someone who can teach a dog to do certain tasks, but a person who can teach a dog and OWNER how to work together to preform those tasks. Every trainer has there own way of doing things and as long as it is done humanly all that matters is the result. I understand the way positive training works and have used it , but there are circumstances as with all training methods that do not always work or are able to be applied. I have come across and owned a dog where positive reinforcement would not work. When you have a large breed dog that is in a blind rage on a fixed target this is not the time for positive training methods.

[jelly8bean]

When you have a large breed dog that is in a blind rage on a fixed target this is not the time for positive training methods.

LOL.. at that point you are toast for sure.

I am one to take my time and use lots of patience and research and work things out as best I can. One of the main things about positive training is not to let a dog escalate to a "blind rage", but to divert/redirect and train other behavior to substitute for that escalation. My rottie is one of those dogs that has very low drive for treats or toys. She truly appears to work more for love than anything else, and she is doing great in obediance with a snuggles reward. I am not the trainer that you are Big Dog. But ,I am having some good success and try to follow the training methods that work for me and my dogs. Positive training has impressed me so far.

[Big Dogs]

There are many different ways to achieve the same goals and I say if that's what works for you and you are getting the results you want go for it! There have been 3 dogs off the top of my head that redirecting would not have been an option and you are absolutely right divert and redirect are the tools that you use! The 3 dogs that I am talking about would not give you any and I mean any escalation prior to there rage all of these dogs were well over 100lbs an Akita, Great Dane and a Dobe and the Dobe was one of mine! He was actually my first as some would call red zone case that I had dealt with. He would actually get up in the middle of the night and attack one of the other dogs while they were sleeping in our bedroom. This took allot of time to work him through. In this instant and thats what you had an instant you had no time to redirect or divert his attention. The most bizarre thing was after the attack was over he would go up to who ever he attacked and lick there face. One thing that we found was going on was after a couple times of this going on my wife would get tense and actually bring the attack on by her being tense. He never went after a person only dogs. After allot of hard work he turned out to be a really good dog. And I guess what I'm saying is when you are dealing with some of these dogs there is no time to redirect they show little or no signs before the storm and if you have ever witnessed a dog fight when they are into it there is no amount of redirecting that is going to get there attention. At that point. I'm kind of a mixture with dog training I think there is many many times that positive training works on a dog and there is times when it just doesn't fit the moment
or circumstance and once again if its working for you Jelly I say stick with it and good luck the least amount of force is always a good thing, but when you need it your really need it! As a little food for thought about these awful dobes my wife and I were talking about which breed of dogs has bitten us the most, believe it or not collies and poodles. When I asked my vet the same question he said it's always the small dogs he said they give you little or no warning, he said the big dogs usually growl before they bite him! Just thought that was interesting.

[Sue J]

I should have clarified what the "we"' meant. Both of us interviewed each other. She asked me lots of questions, like what I wanted from Jett now and long term (pp/sports/etc), what I expected from the class, problem areas, etc. Her first visit will be an eval of all of us. Was very upbeat about dobes, especially their "goofy" personality & intelligence but did not mention how powerful they are. She owns a recue pit bull and said she has worked with dobes in the past. I'm making a list of ? for our next call, including ideas brought up here. Will also check her references and plan to ask for her trainer as one of them.

I spent yesterday researching PetSmart as best I could. From their site,this is what I found re' "PetSmart Accredited Pet Training Instructors" (their words, my abbreviations): Prior to working with dogs, trainer completes rigorous ed in problem solving, canine ethology, genetics, behavioral & learning theory, curriculum developed by leading trainers and animal behavioralist, uses combo of verbal cues, hand signals & positive reinforcement, operant condition with concentration on positive reinforcement. No choke chains and harsh methods.--Nothing about quality/depth of the curriculum or who the "leading trainers and animal behavioralist" are. Thanks for the discussion/ideas so far, keep them coming!!

[Big Dogs]

Well it sounds as if your potential trainer is asking the right questions and as if you are asking the right ones to. Just out of curiosity what are your goals for Jett and yourself? As far as a behavioralist all trainers if there worth there weight in gold have to be. Well you will know when she works with Jett if she is the one for you. Good luck!

[Sue J]

I've been thinking a lot about goals. At this point we want a social, well mannered, solid obedient companion that will alert us if something threatens (stranger on property, wild animals near). In the future, I'd like to feel totally secure that I'm safe when we're alone or when I am traveling with her. I believe all dogs should have a job, so I guess I'm trying to clarify exactly what I want her her future job to be. When asking myself what I'd want in a bad situation, I'd want her to back someone off without hesitation if I needed her to and flat eat their behinds off if I was in absolute true danger and needed help. Would Jett do that on her own because of breed character I'm not sure. Of the 6 dobes we've had, I had one ("Annie"), that we trusted would do that, the rest would not have rumbled so "Annie" came inside full time when I was alone. Do I want Jett pp trained? I don't know. I just don't know enough about pp to decide. Have I just described a pp trained dog?

[Dobs4ever]

Very interesting disucssion. And one thing to remember is that all dogs are different even within a particular breed. So it is not a one shoe fits all. the most important thing a trainer can bring to the table is creativity. IMHO and my opinion only most certified trainers have been drilled with one method and are not as creative as i would like to see. And having trained numerous dogs I am sure that Big Dog will agree that one way only does not always work with every dog.

My rule of thumb is after the dog knows what it is doing and decides to blow you off which Dobes are famous for I correct to let them know that I don't take kindly to being blown off. The correction must fit the situation. It can be as simple as withholding a treat but in some cases it requires a more direct correction. I want ever training session to be 100% positive - that is the goal but my rule of thumb is never more than 10% correction or you are too heavy handed.

I only resort to the e collar if a dog leaves me and does not come back and that is after a minimum of 18 months building a postive recall with praise and reward. At that point the dog knows what here is.

[Big Dogs]

You are absolutely correct when you say a good certified trainer has to be able to adapt there training methods and switch methods totally depending on the dog. Every dog in my opinion is different is there inherent tendencies with in a breed yes most of the time but not all the time. Will a trainer usually try to train a particular way yes but a really good trainer knows when to change tack ticks when his preferred way isn't working. I also agree that you have to always try and end on a positive note even if that means you have to regress back to end on a positive note. Sue go through the obedience classes and get Jett's confidence up and your own and then decide if you want to move on to something else. Jett has to be 110% on the obedience side before moving on to protection training of any kind if thats the way you decide you want to go. I think you might find a change in Jett after the obedience classes. Dogs sometimes seem to be more self confident and that can lead to there natural protection instincts coming out especially since you to will have a different re pore with her ( I like to call the special Bond).

[Dobs4ever]

Good points Big Dog. For Dobes their defence drived do not mature til sometime around 2 or so. So you really dont' know for sure what you have til then. Not all dobermans are protective, not all Dobermans will stand up to a threat. It is either there in the breeding genes or it is not. If the dog does not have that part of the puzzle then you will not have it regardless of age or training. That is why it is so important for breeders to pay more attention to temperament IMO than anything else in their program. Until the temperament is right the most beautiful dog in the world that can't do the job it was bred to do is uselss again IMO. Just look at the pass ratio of the WAE. 25 to 30 % at best. And then add to that the very few breeders who even take it so I fear the real numbers are much lower.

[Big Dogs]

Sue how old is Jett I'm sure you have told us but I forget easy I think it's the age thing. Dobes4ever is right on with the age and the maturity time frame. And thank you for the comments on temperament people do not realize how important it is. Sue as far as what you are describing if I am reading it right you are describing a protection dog one that will bark stand her ground but not attack. This is what most people who want a protection dog are really looking for. Not many individuals would advance on a Doberman in this state! And honestly this is all the average home owner can handle. The expense and time involved to take a dog to any higher level is very costly and should only be done by qualified instructor. All that being said you have to have a dog with the drive to do it. There are some indicators although not completely accurate early on, but to have a fairly accurate assessment you have to wait the 2yr time frame. Now my youngest male is 15 months and showing great promise but he has always been a bold confident dog with a very good prey drive with tons of focus all good things for a working dog at this age, but he needs to mature just a little more to be sure!

[Sue J]

Jett is still a pup- 6 months old 5/16. I know it's way too early to know what she will be. She's here for her life regardless. We're just gonna work and work on obedience for a long time and enjoy the heck out of her. But sometimes I watch her and wonder if she's showing us that she has more to develop at some point. I read some stuff on drive, but I wish I understood it better, but that's a probably a whole different thread.

[jelly8bean]

I'm of the idea that the dogs presence provides me significant protection, but I don't expect them to do anything. As a reality of living in the suburbs, I am definitely of the mind that they had better never do anything, and I train accordingly. If you have a thief/bad guy who is not deterred by the fact I have two dobermans and a rottie in the house, well they are going to do what they want anyway.

Training is a process, all dogs are different in their reaction to various training methods. Your goals are a very important point on how you want to progress your training. PP training or working dogs need development of drive etc in a certain direction. I'm looking for showing Rally/obedience and agility. Still needs drive, but different directions for different end points.

The journey is the good part where you bond with your dog and enjoy each other. Keep us up with your journey. :)

[Dobs4ever]

Sue - what a wonderful attitude - the dog is here for its life regardless. I wish more folks felt this way. It would solve a lot of our pound population. You work with waht you have and you learn from it which in turn then prepares you to handle perhaps a more advanced dog. Most owners are not prepared to handle and live with the top dog to start with. The dog has a much shorter learning curve than the human partner. Again JMHO

[Dobs4ever]

Jelly - Training is a process that never truly ends for either you or the dog and that makes it a journey of discovery and bonding. That is the good point - Excellent observation.

I'm of the idea that the dogs presence provides me significant protection, but I don't expect them to do anything. As a reality of living in the suburbs, I am definitely of the mind that they had better never do anything, and I train accordingly. If you have a thief/bad guy who is not deterred by the fact I have two dobermans and a rottie in the house, well they are going to do what they want anyway.

Training is a process, all dogs are different in their reaction to various training methods. Your goals are a very important point on how you want to progress your training. PP training or working dogs need development of drive etc in a certain direction. I'm looking for showing Rally/obedience and agility. Still needs drive, but different directions for different end points.

The journey is the good part where you bond with your dog and enjoy each other. Keep us up with your journey. :)

[Big Dogs]

If only more people would have this commitment to there dogs. When people take the time and effort to train there dogs to what ever level they are hoping to achieve that shows me a RESPONSIBLE owner and in turn a happier dog.