Collars for Training?

[jelly8bean]

I thought it might be educational if we had a discussion on training collars. My current favorite is a martingale collar. This is a limited slip collar and to me gives the advantage/control of choke chain without the worries. It is also easier to keep up at the top of their neck for more specific control for heeling etc.

I also will use a gentle leader for regular walks. I have found this permits me to have some leverage against the power of the pull when we come to unexpected situations. Remembering it is a training tool only and once I feel comfortable with their walking I slowly move over to a flat collar. This is just the general exercise walking and I train them to "walk with me".. positioned in the general vicinity of the 'heel' without perfection.

I know that some folks swear by the prong collar, and others need the e-collar (for certain issues).

[Dobs4ever]

Jelly - Every person probbly has their preference and if it works then there is not need for change. I have just found for the higher drive dogs expecially, usually not the females the prong does wonders. A 90 lb dog can drag you where ever they decide to go and the prong keeps my shoulders in their sockets.

So I use a flat collar til the puppy reaches 6 to 7 months and then decides they are big enough and strong enough to go where they want then I switvch to the prong and use it til I go into the ring with them.

I don't want anything that puts pressure on the neck - head etc in anyway. Dobes already have enough problems in this area with CVI issues. So I prefer to err on the side of caution.

[tidibole]

I use a pinsch collar (micro pinsch from Sylvia Tack Trunk with additional links on the Euro dog) and a Herm Sprenger puppy pinsch with additional links for the older dog. When a regular collar is utilized it is a snake Hex choke style of thickness. I never use a leash more than 1/2 inch thick and generally 1/4 is ufficient when working the easier dogs. Just don't like the thickness and bulk of the wider leather in my hands. It is generally the snap that is the weakness in the leash and not the thickness of the leather itself. Have never used a gentle leader??

[Dobs4ever]

Tidibole - I like the thiner leather leash also but when doing protection work the thicker for me is a must. When a dog is really aggitated and fighting hard to get to the bad guy I want to know that they will not get away from me and someone get hurt.

If I am correct I think th gentle leader goes on the head and with the problems Dobes have with neck issues would not be one of my personal choices. Ihave heard of a harness that somehow hooks around front so stoppes the pulling of the traditional harness hooked on the back that gives the dog tons of power for pulling.

[Big Dogs]

I also like the prong collars for training but I usually switch to a regular choke collar when the dog progresses to the point where they need little or no corrections. Again everyone has a preference as to what collars they like but the location and the use of the collar is more important in my opinion especially with working dogs. As far as leashes go I usually go for a 1/2 wide leather leash no more than 6ft. I have never used the gentle leader although I would have to agree with Dobs4ever not totally sure I like the mechanics of it but I'm always open to try different products and styles.

[Dobs4ever]

I use the fur saver for showing in working venues or just their leather collar. Usually the fur saver is a signal that we are serious about working so usually show in it especially the males.

[jelly8bean]

Gentle leader does go around the head, but doesn't impact the neck area like normal collars do. It is like a halter and basically pulls on the bridge of the nose. I like it alot because of the leverage it gives me with my rottie and my dobies , since they both can pull me right over if needed. It is just a training tool for exercise walking though, and is phased out as they understand the activity and their part in it.

Otherwise I use a rolled leather collar for general wear, which I like because I prefer leather, and I understand the rolled is a fur saver. If you are showing I don't think you use a regular collar (for tags and such) because of the coat issues right?

[tidibole]

Interesting! I would think that a fur saver would be entirely too bulky given the dobe neck. As mentioned when I feel the dog has graduated from the pinsch to the choke I use a Snake/hexagon, but by the time that collar is in use the dog is relatvely knowledgeable on what is required. The snap on any leash is the weakest link and even in my conformation set up I have had the 26 inch leash direectly stitched to the leather choke ring as to prevent any possibility of breaking. I have had the misfortune of snap breaking on a dog with a tremendous prey drive, now I am very aware of the quality.

[Big Dogs]

tidibole it's funny you were talking about the snap on the leash breaking with a high prey drive dog I haven't had the snap break but I have had a dog break the ring on there choke collier ( it literally blew apart ) so we tell owners where to by ones that are completely welded or we get them for them.

[Sue J]

Timely discussion, I'm learning a lot for the future. Right now Jett wears a nylon flat collar. Our trainer recommended starting her with a halter to stop the pulling. The one that goes around her front legs and shoulder, not around her back. She said if she didn't respond well to that she'd recommend a gentle leader. We'll wean off as she learns and is steady. She's bringing the halter Friday to our next session. I like the 1/2" wide leash as I don't like the bulk in my hand either. When I close my hand it's about that size and the wider ones kinda of hurt (arthritis).

[DRLittlechickbigdiesel]

i use a gentle leader for daily walking, but i dont understand how you get your dog to not break those tiny show collars, my boy would snap it! thats a big reason why we dont do conformation. what would you suggest to get him to stop pulling and start heeling? i've tried everything. he knows when the gentle leader is on and the prong, all of a sudden hes an angel, but if i dont have them, i get pulled everywhere. any advice? im getting a pup from silver hawk dobermans and am afraid the same thing may happen, my blue female doesnt pull but shes very submissive, she does whatever is asked of her. the male is bull headed and has other things to care about than what i have to say. he has almost pulled me over numerous times and its gotten annoying. any help?

[Dobs4ever]

Tidibole - the fur save is actually better on the neck becasue it distributes the weight more than a regular choke chain. I always work it on the dead ring anyway but the time they are ready to use it. As far as the continual pulling stated above it is training, treaining, training. If you let them pull one second then they are back to pulling. You have to make it clear to the dog he does not get to go anywhere he wants unless it is on loose lead. One pull and you are back to ground zero. So with pinch collar on I start off on my walk. Dog does his usual thing and heads out. Just before he reaches the endl of the lead I pivot turn and head off in the opposite direction giving a swift quick correction on the lead. When he catches back up with me I praise for returning to my side and off we go. Same thing when he gets about to the end reverse and correct. Doesn't take long but does take timing and consistent work.

[tidibole]

Tidibole - the fur save is actually better on the neck becasue it distributes the weight more than a regular choke chain. I always work it on the dead ring anyway but the time they are ready to use it. As far as the continual pulling stated above it is training, treaining, training. If you let them pull one second then they are back to pulling. You have to make it clear to the dog he does not get to go anywhere he wants unless it is on loose lead. One pull and you are back to ground zero. So with pinch collar on I start off on my walk. Dog does his usual thing and heads out. Just before he reaches the endl of the lead I pivot turn and head off in the opposite direction giving a swift quick correction on the lead. When he catches back up with me I praise for returning to my side and off we go. Same thing when he gets about to the end reverse and correct. Doesn't take long but does take timing and consistent work.I love the PIVOT, it just makes the dog actually correct himself and I am all for that. I will tell you I don't like the fursaver but then I am sure anything has a purpose if it works for you. The halti, gentle leader, honestly, I don't understand the concept and personally feel it dosen't teach, it appears more as an aspirin for a migraine..masks the issues...but dosen't accompolish the end results desired. I certainly do not want to step on any toes, but, what IF? you had to use a collar or any other such item, would the dog respond favorably without the benefit of the head piece? From my experience, the answer is generally not. Taking a walk should be the ideal time to concentrate on just WALKING behavior,(on a regular collar and preferably a choke) not necessarily heeling but not pulling. On the occassions that I walk my dogs, they are allowed to walk ahead of me an investigate but NOT pull, and that is done on a choke chain, sometimes not even on the choke aspect...But it is available if the need arises..It is amazing that once a dog is taught to HEEL, a piece of twine can be used.

[Sue J]

Dobs4-I started another thread on pulling as I have technique question.

[tidibole]

i use a gentle leader for daily walking, but i dont understand how you get your dog to not break those tiny show collars, my boy would snap it! thats a big reason why we dont do conformation. what would you suggest to get him to stop pulling and start heeling? i've tried everything. he knows when the gentle leader is on and the prong, all of a sudden hes an angel, but if i dont have them, i get pulled everywhere. any advice? im getting a pup from silver hawk dobermans and am afraid the same thing may happen, my blue female doesnt pull but shes very submissive, she does whatever is asked of her. the male is bull headed and has other things to care about than what i have to say. he has almost pulled me over numerous times and its gotten annoying. any help?Who is the sire of your puppy? the Kimbertal male or Yogi.??

[Dobs4ever]

Sue - did I answer your question??? If you need more info just let me know and I will be happy to help.

The problem I have with the kind of technique you stated is it is not FUN for the dog. When teaching heeling (of course I am teaching for competition so I expect more than say for a CGC)
I build two motivators - FOOD and TOY. I want the idea dog to work for either because later I phase out the food and it is all about the toy except on rare occassions. I always hold the leash at the handle. I want loose lead heeling not I have gripped the dog and am holding it in place. Loose lead means the dog gets to choose where he is. My purpose is to help him always make the right decision which is by my side. That is where the rewards come from.

Dobs4-I started another thread on pulling as I have technique question.

[jelly8bean]

As I have stated, I find the Gentle leader an excellent training device,for general exercise walking. It works very well to prevent pulling and help set the dog up for success by training them to understand the allowances with walking. I feel I have been successful with training a good walk on more than one dog with the gentle leader and phasing it out to a flat collar so far. If a dog is trained to be "collar specific" , as in "will not perform without the appropriate collar", then I don't think it makes a difference what you use. Training is a matter of setting up for success and in the general walk I have found the GL does this very nicely in my house.

[Dobs4ever]

Jelly - there is not a one thing fixes all. You have had success with it so I would not change it. But if you are planning on going into competition I don't see this tool working. It is the same thing as a specific collar as you mention so I do not see any difference in transitioning the dog from your leader to the flat collar or the prong to the flat collar same difference IMO. As always with a lower drive dogs just about anything works.

[jelly8bean]

Of course I'm planning on competition.. as I've stated my rottie already competes in Rally (one more score for RN - her CCL surgery set us back), and I want Indigo to go into Obedience and agility. What does that have to do with using the GL to train a good walk? Why does this tool not work if you are planning on competition?

As a tool it is great for me. I understand that other's like to use other tools and that is why this is an interesting discussion.

[tidibole]

I am stating this WITHOUT the intent to start a riot...I personally think that a GL looks ridiculous on any breed of dog..A halter is for a horse, a collar for a dog. I also have to question that those trainers that feel the need to employ gentle leaders are perhaps not as intune to training techniques as one may want. Just my opinion, but I have to say if it works for you, then keep on and don't let anyone deter you.

[Dobs4ever]

Jelly - somehow I feel I have said something that has made you feel defensive on this discission. I said if it works for you - then that is fine. I don't have a problem with anyone using any thing that works for them. I simply said no difference in transitition from GL to flat collar or prong collar to flat collar. You still have to transition which is true.

I worked for a chiropractor for several years and my dogs are all checked by my chiropractor on a regular basis. I can tell you from personal experience that anything that controls the head leaves the rest of the body free to move - it is called whiplash- It only takes one time for the dog to try to break and run, twist the neck and damage is done. One of the biggest problems is that if the dog slows down for a few days and then seems to get better but the damage has been done. Even though it may take several years for the permanent damage to show up it will come. I just prefer to not take that chance with my dogs and a breed that is prone to neck problems anyway.

That is my opinion and I don't care if people want to discuss it and critize it. I am confident enough in my conclusion to not be offended or feel threatened by the criticism. It is how we learn and in America we are each able to do what we choose.

I think it is a good thread and by the different opinions each person can pick and choose what they like and discard the rest.

[tidibole]

Jelly - somehow I feel I have said something that has made you feel defensive on this discission. I said if it works for you - then that is fine. I don't have a problem with anyone using any thing that works for them. I simply said no difference in transitition from GL to flat collar or prong collar to flat collar. You still have to transition which is true.

I worked for a chiropractor for several years and my dogs are all checked by my chiropractor on a regular basis. I can tell you from personal experience that anything that controls the head leaves the rest of the body free to move - it is called whiplash- It only takes one time for the dog to try to break and run, twist the neck and damage is done. One of the biggest problems is that if the dog slows down for a few days and then seems to get better but the damage has been done. Even though it may take several years for the permanent damage to show up it will come. I just prefer to not take that chance with my dogs and a breed that is prone to neck problems anyway.

That is my opinion and I don't care if people want to discuss it and critize it. I am confident enough in my conclusion to not be offended or feel threatened by the criticism. It is how we learn and in America we are each able to do what we choose.

I think it is a good thread and by the different opinions each person can pick and choose what they like and discard the rest.INTERESTING!!!!
Same bridge, but I jump off holding my nose and you choose an air tank..LOL

[jelly8bean]

But if you are planning on going into competition I don't see this tool working.

Not defensive at all. I know that many trainers love the prong and not the GL but I feel differently. I was wondering what the above meant?

[Dobs4ever]

Good Jelly glad we can discuss different phases of any topic. What I meant is I would see a bigger transition if going into competition with the GL because it seems to me having trained severl dogs to titles it would be harder to transition. I understand when you say a casual walk but I was speaking specifically of form perfect heeling with head up and watching you every step flowing freely as you move in tune with each other.

How do you accomplish that the the GL and then how do you transition it into the show ring? For example when I go from prong to fur saver for the ring I still have the sound of the metal which alerts the dog to changes and they pick up on. The feel, the sound the entire structure would change with the GL wouldn't it? I also don't see how you get correct position for competition and you did mention that for general walking. When outside and just walking around I don't demand a heel and the dog is wandering around more - I understand this.

[Sue J]

anything that controls the head leaves the rest of the body free to move - it is called whiplash- It only takes one time for the dog to try to break and run, twist the neck and damage is done.

Trying to think through the mechanics but I'm :confused:...can't any kind of collar create the same thing? I've seen Jett's head stay still yet her body ran around it or her hind end jumped around behind her head especially when she lunged and made it to the end of the leash.

[Dobs4ever]

Sue its a good point and yes any collar can cause a problem but a prong or flat collar is usually lower down on the neck where there is more muscleing so not like the collars that are focused on the front of the head and nose area. The prong or flat collar pulls the neck not the nose area or the crown area which is where your biggest chance for injury is found. Also, forgive me I am trying to make this make sense, but when the dog spins on a collar it does not twist the head because the head can follow the body on around. When you have control of the head the body can snap around but you are holding the head in place so more likely to cause a problem in the axis area of the head.

Some signs your dog may have a neck injury is toeing in or occassionally yelping for apparently no reason.

[Sue J]

I see what you're saying. I will watch Jett closer. She's usually wearing a flat collar and it is lower on her neck. We're using harnass for pulling for now though.

[Big Dogs]

Sue Dobe4ever is right any collar can cause damage if not use correctly. Let me give you this thought and don't try this at home just think about it. Say you are walking across the room and someone grabs your nose as your walking and pushes it toward your chest. Think about you neck position. Now same scenario only someone reaches out and stops you by grabbing your neck which is in it's natural position. Again this is an extreme scenario. I do not put nylon collars on any dog I train or own if work with them because a dog will actually get in tune to the sound and the feel of the collar. I have trained dogs and my own dogs do not have to see me getting there collars all they have to do is hear them. One of the tools a trainer will use is sound and it is a very big part of training I have had dogs and one of my own dogs that will actually hear the collar start to tighten and not feel it yet and preform the task or correction a split second before the correction. The first time I saw this happen many years ago and realized what I was seeing it convinced me to stay with the way I was trained. Again there is many different philosophy's on collars and training and as long as they are done humanely and they work for someone I say go for it.

[Dobs4ever]

Excellent explanation Big Dogs - they do key in on the sound just like when you use the tone signal on an e collar. they hear the tone so you don't usually have to go to the correction after a time or two. Same principal.

I don't use nylon anything. It cuts my hands as it is too slick an dI can't hold onto it.

[jelly8bean]

I would agree about the GL on heeling, and I have not used it for such. Heeling is so much more about attention and specific position that it takes a completely different attitude and training tool set than exercise walking.

[Big Dogs]

jelly the dogs I am talking about listen to the sound of the collar even on a exercise walks they don't have to be in the work mode they have gotten in tune to the sound and have been conditioned to not pull through working with them. We train our dogs that even though they are on an exercise walk it may be free or frie time as long as there collar and leash are on they are to act in a respectful manner no jumping chasing or pulling. I have clients that are elderly and I want the collar going over the dogs head to act like a switch it doesn't matter if they are taking them for a walk or to work them there are no excuses for the dog to act any differently. Even on an exercise walk we are still asking for all the same things just a different intensity. I tell my clients I want the dog in the same position on an exercise walk as I do in heeling are we as strict with the position no but I still want them close, the farther in front a dog gets the less control you have and the longer your correction takes if needed, and the dog also becomes more powerful. Dogs that are out in front of you will go into the tracking mode or wandering mode and will start to pull. Don't get me wrong our dogs know when the training collar comes of it's play time or kennel time we never leave any training collar on when not in use especially if they are going in the kennel.

[tidibole]

Just my TWO cents worth!!! I DO allow my dogs to walk in front. Only WHEN we are doing just that WALKING. I do not allow it anytime where there are dogs involved, even at shows, etc. Generally on a 6' leash. We have leash laws.. They react to the word "heel" or "here" are easily brought back into check, not unlike off leash. I can see the concern with a dog who is not familiar with heeling allowed to be to forward and ultimately becoming as you mentioned "too powerful" but I think they are bright enough to know the difference. Rather like a dressage event versus trail ride...They know the difference. My Ty is nicely triained off leash and heels well off leash, however, his previous owner used the Ecollar and did very little leash training. Unfortunately, once the leash is introduced into heeling he becomes a different dog. Too date the pinch collar has been the best for both of us. Ironically, I use a 1/4 inch bridle leather collar/leash ensemble in the breed ring and he does very well, serious businesslike behavior, no pulling, etc.. I also use a micro pinch (1/2 " x 3/4" x 1/4 inch prong bend) one on my other boy but honestly get ALOT more respect from him and can even use the 6' 1/4 inch leash. I absolutely despise BULK.. And since it is SO SMALL makes me wonder if the transition will be yet even easier to a smaller collar than a larger bulkier prong. dobs4 mentioned using a fur saver, actually they are not unlike size wise as a prong collar and perhaps that is helpful in transition as well. I think it is well stated:..Do What works for you...

[jelly8bean]

I completely agree with the ideas, I just think I use a different training tools. I train them to be in approx the heeling position on exercise walks and then phase over to flat collar as the training takes hold thru repetition etc. I think if you have a good walk, then heeling is all about attention. I would like to have a great walk before working on heeling, but sometimes that isn't the way it works out. I have a good attention heel with Indigo inside the house and am working on it in the back yard. In the mean time we are also getting a nice exercise walk that I started training with the GL and am phasing over to the martingale collar and will end up with flat collar and hopefully a good attention heel when ever and where ever requested! Whoo Whoo :)

I do like the idea of the thin leash because in Novice rally it is on leash obedience and bulky leash is more difficult to manage.

[Dobs4ever]

AHHHH ok that makes much more sense if you transition to the martinegale with some correction built in and then the flat collar. That little piece of info brings it together I just felt something was missing.

[Dobs4ever]

Most Schutzhund trainers recommend using the fur saver now as opposed to the choke chain again due to the damage the choke can do to the neck. The bigger links of the fur saver disperse the pressure so it is felt to be a better choice over the choke but still give some control At least a dog can't slip out of it.

[tidibole]

I personally feel buckle collars are equivalent to a horse's halter and a CHOKE, pinch, etc are equivalent to a hackamore or bit. It depends entirely on the control you need or want!! I don't care for the look of the fursaver, reminds me entirely too much of tow chain!!! However, have seen it used frequently on COATED dogs, ie German Shepherd, etc, hence the name of FURSAVER!!!

[Dobs4ever]

When showing in Schutzhund it is always required to be on the dead ring again to protect the neck and discourage slight corrections like with the choke. And just like horses the bigger the bit the easier on the horse. The smaller the bit the more severe. Maybe that helps make it plainer.

Also in Shcutzhund you have to work out in a large field with the dog off lead and another dog on the field doing its honor down unlike AKC where you are in a tiny ring and have a fence all around and no other dogs in the ring until the long sit and down.

Perhaps control was not the correct term since so much of Schutzhund is working off lead and maybe they want the fur saver because it is easier to grab if a dog takes off after the other dog on the field which I have also seen. A choke can cut right through your hands and to me is much harder to grab. For me it is always about what is best for the dog regardless of my personal preferences.

I don't particularly like the looks of the fursaver either, but prefer to use something that is not as likely to cause damage except in conformation where we are left with little options but to use chokes.

[SnuzerDog]

Interesting discussion. I use a 1" wide nylon martingale on Deano, with a 1" wide, 4' lead- seems to do the job ok. He has become a pretty good loose leash walker, staying by my left side. I allow him to range laterally from 6" to a couple feet away, as our walks are both for his relief and exercise for both of us. :) He is 89lbs, and while it is rare, there have been a few instances where I needed to haul him in. Fortunately, at 6' and 210lbs myself, I can deal with it, but when we approach other dogs, or I want him close by my side I roll that lead a couple times around my fist to take up slack and keep close control until I know what's going to happen. Usually it's because he freaks around strangers (remember, rescue) but occasionally another OC dog sets him off. Either way the martingale has been sufficient so far...
I have noticed that some dog businesses, groups and such have clear rules that do not allow prong collars; but for some dogs I can easily see where they might be necessary.

[tidibole]

I have found from expereince, myself included until recently, that until one learns the proper useage of a prong, it is very ominous. Usually the groups etc that are weary of prongs are not comfortable in the useage nor are they knowledgeable enough to educate in its use. MY dogs are not intimidated by the PRONG collar, completely the opposite, once they see it coming out they dance for joy because they understand that this is our one on one time. I have never been a fan of HEAVY equipment (primarily wide collars and lead or even the HUGE prongs) unless as mentioned it is necessary for a particular venue. I have seen PRONGS that are not only too wide but too large and ultimately the desired results are unachievable I don't understand why some people use a BULLY collar with all but a tow chain for a lead? I have seen it all too often locally. I use a prong when necessary, for training and a thin snake/hex collar with 1/4 inch bison leather leash any other time including walks. I started with the thick 3/4 inch leashes for obedience MANY years ago and have over the years not found it necessary to continue that use even in obedience classes. Using the wrong equipment ultimately can result in constant "nagging" or "restraining" rather than one good correction. I believe in allowing the dog to make a mistake in order to make that good correction. But I do understand that everyone has their preference and comfort level..

[Gryphon57]

This is just my opinion and what I have observed over the years. I prefer the 1 inch leather flat leash...and never nylon...as a nylon can sure cut up your hand also imagine how a nylon collar would feel on a dog. The 1 inch allows for a good grip and security if for some reason you get in the situation that your dog is extremely agitated. It is also more comfortable when training. As far as collars, well, I've used the general choke chain and the rope choke (don't know the technical name anymore..to long ago). I could use a flat leather collar on my Neapolitan mastiff..she was never a problem and as she aged it was her that was lagging behind. Because she was so well behaved is probably why she took second in a rare breed match...almost all the other dogs were just ridiculous in the ring, untrained and wild. I watched in horror as a huge young man 6'5" at least, was dragged into the ring by his gigantic male puppy neo. The judge was so not impressed.
The pinch collar I used on my australian cattle dog at the recommendation of the trainer at the time. I think if it had been for my dobe or bouvier it would have worked like a charm , but Dallas was unlike any dog I'd had in the past and all it did was to bring out the worst in him even when properly applied. He was an extremely hard dog..glass eyes, you know...turn green almost when in a mood..i knew so little then and even so called experts gave me very bad advice. My brother had a huge shepherd that was almost as hard as Dallas. Know your dog and what makes him/her tick. All the tools out there will work well considering you are using them correctly. Now don't laugh...haha..because I'm going to refer to my bedlington. He likes to lead out in front and using a choke or even a flat collar on him will cause him to chuff and cough with his own force used against it. Being of a delicate build compared to a dobe I looked for another means of securing him. I don't remember the name of the harness I bought for him, I believe it is made by gentle leader. Anyways, the clip is on the front of the chest and this makes it awkward for him to pull and the mild force he uses against it (he doesn't get silly....pretty calm dog) force to find a tree to pee on would be it..well, he doesn't have any pressure on his throat and it does not hurt him. I find he heels perfectly on this harness with very little effort on my part. I've watched the dog whisperer and I found his little invention to keep the collar up at the top of neck is a great idea to, although not for a medium small dog of delicate build like by beddy or a wippet etc. Quite frankly, I think that everything that Cesar Millan does is wonderful and he gears his techniques towards the individual needs of the animal and its circumstances, behaviour etc... but that is another topic all together. A lot of times I see people use chokes etc incorrectly so the truth is..whatever tool you decide best serves your dog , you need to use it precisely etc in order for it to become successful. I tend to more and more look at each dog individually and develop its on unique "personal support plan" hahaha.