What constitutes a WIN

[tidibole]

Just curious, to those of you who show, either in conformation or obedience!!...What really constitues a win? Is it a BOB over a handful of entries which does not include Specials? Or is it simply being at the RIGHT place at the RIGHT time that insures bragging rights? A 2nd place out of 2 dogs? (placement could have with held)Is an Int'l Ch with 2nd place placements throughout? It appears as if in obedience, pretty cut an dry, you either perform or you don't..Just interested in opinions...At what point is a WIN worthy of communicating..

[Rhiannon]

Just curious, to those of you who show, either in conformation or obedience!!...What really constitues a win? Is it a BOB over a handful of entries which does not include Specials? Or is it simply being at the RIGHT place at the RIGHT time that insures bragging rights? A 2nd place out of 2 dogs? (placement could have with held)Is an Int'l Ch with 2nd place placements throughout? It appears as if in obedience, pretty cut an dry, you either perform or you don't..Just interested in opinions...At what point is a WIN worthy of communicating..

Tidibole in my honest opinion I feel that any win no matter how big or small has the right to be bragged about if the owner is proud of the dog. I would also think that as long as the dog has any dogs in competition in the breed ring be it one other dog then it is a win. I believe that especially if someone is newer to the competition ring and a handler wants to post a brag to encourage a client or friend to keep showing their dog then there is no harm in posting that brag or bragging to a friend or whatever. You are correct a win can be withheld from the days competition so in my honest opinion if the judge feels the dog is worthy of the win and gives it to the dog who are we to question his or her opinion for the day. I think that the judge has validated the dog's worthiness by awarding the win....ribbon....or points and therefore the dog has deserved it. After all that is what they are supposed to be there for and if they are doing their job correctly then that is what matters. What if a dog is awarded a win in the ring just because of what top handler or better yet better known handler is handed the win due to the fact that the judge knows the handler ...had dinner with the handler the night before or whatever...and we both know that happens consistently in the conformation ring. Does that make that win anymore important just because that handler might have beaten say 50 or more dogs.........??????? So in my most humble ...honest opinion I think any of us have the right to be proud of any win in the ring. Should you not feel proud of your win in Illinois when you only beat one other class dog? If you cannot be proud of your dog's performance for the day with or without competition why are any of us out there spending money and our time pursuing a hobby that we enjoy if we cannot be proud of our wins no matter how big or small. I personally think that to try to analyze wins in the ring is self defeating and does nothing to encourage anyone else to step into the breed ring or obedience ring to give it a try. I think that everyone has the right to communicate a win and am curious to what you mean when you state above

"A 2nd place out of 2 dogs? (placement could have with held)Is an Int'l Ch with 2nd place placements throughout? " Are you referring to a specific dog? Who has told you that if the dog has only beaten a handful of dogs the dog is not worthy of having his photo posted or a post bragging about his weekend? Just curious..........do you also feel that if there is only one dog competing in obedience at a show and is awarded High In Trial by default that you should not be proud of your dog's performance.......? I think when someone posts a win maybe they are also talking about that the conformation dog's performance was dead on and simply means just that.....nothing more and nothing less....no hidden agendas........and exactly why could a handler not post a win if they in someway might be doing so in hopes that someone else might consider hiring them at some point because they see that a handler or owner has been getting the job done in the ring by training and conditioning a dog and getting points on the dogs being shown. :confused:

[Dobs4ever]

At all times - You have played the game and you made the effort - when the judge awards the points which one of us would not be jumping for joy??? Every point is worth bragging about - you showed up - you won. GOOD for you!!!! CELEBRATION is called for....Pass out the confetti and call a ticker tape parade. You are on your way counting to the 15 needed - that is WORTHY based on the rules of the game and how points are awarded.

The Intl is much more laid back and if you beat a special that shows up then you should be really happy - but if you get what you went for which is your title then GOOD FOR YOU and I would BRAG!!! It is an accomplishement and no one should try to demean it or take it away.

Don't think obedience is cut and dry - I have seen points and ribbons awarded to place a dog higher than another dog that should have had a higher placement so it still happens they just don't withhold the pontis to get the leg.

It is about getting what is required and as long as there is no cheating by the competitors then the judge has the say - may the best dog win and then BRAG!

[Rhiannon]

Thank you that is what I was trying to say as well......

[tidibole]

No specific dog in mind...Should there be one? A win worth bragging about, unless used for marketing is one that has competiton, ie, a dog from the classes for points and breed over specials! I have been in a position to be 1st without competiton, is it worth bragging about, even if a point was awarded? No, I think not..HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BE PROUD of,given the competition. Showing is competitive and therefore requires competiton.. the International although FUN and as mentioned very laid back does not hold the same value as they do in Europe. SECOND place in any venue is not the TOP DOG...and unless it is at a Speciality, nothing more than advertising to those who are clueless and are attempting to purchae a puppy! !!! The proodf is when the same dog that does well without competion can hold it's own whether in the classes or BOB against REAL competion!! Those dogs are hard to come by and that is why so many POWER handlers are out there, I truly think few of us have them. But I suppose if what we want is simply to win then any thing goes and we can inflate what ever we accompolish.. of course, Dobs4ever, without CHEATING, in any respect!!!! And yes Rhiannon, obedience is definately different, it is performance based and even 1 dog with i.e a 199 score should and could be HIT regardless of competiton, the proof is in the puddin" , it is not awarded on gratiuty , emotion or opinion. Any venue to the loser can be made to appear political

[Rhiannon]

No specific dog in mind...Should there be one? A win worth bragging about, unless used for marketing is one that has competiton, ie, a dog from the classes for points and breed over specials! I have been in a position to be 1st without competiton, is it worth bragging about, even if a point was awarded? No, I think not..Showing is competitive and therefore requires competiton.. the Intrnational although FUN and as mentioned very laid back does not hold the same value as they do in Europe. SECOND place in any venue is not the TOP DOG...and unless it is at a Speciality, nothing more than advertising to those who are clueless!!!

Again I will say that I agree with Susan in saying that more than anything else I believe that the brags are simply saying that okay so we have so many points won towards his or her championship only so many more to go. You need to sit back and examine the whole picture of any win out there. And even so let's just say that a dog has no competition in the breed ring whatsoever. He or she is the only dog entered.....so he goes out into the group ring and takes a group 1 to now be awarded a five point major due to the fact that another breed had enough dogs to to make a major. So is his 5 point major not a worthy win because he or she did not have to beat any other dogs of his same breed to get to his five point major. I think not. My daughter and I argue all of the time about that after a certain point and we have a dog singled out we should only show the dog when there is a major. I believe that you show the dog in hopes that you can take a group 1. Why leave the dog sit at home. I for one know that we are capable of getting bigger wins than just Best of Breed so why not go for the Gusto so to speak. Is a Best In Show at a small show where say there is only around 500 dogs not a Best In Show win? It is a win....regardless. Should that owner not place an ad in Doberman Digest, Canine Chronicle or Dog News to brag? I think it is how you look at it. And most people I know don't brag about a reserve or a second place win......You know it is kind of like when my husband was showing another one of our Weims a while back. His male actually went out and beat our Multiple group winning and Multiple BISS winning Weimaraner. This was a win he was very proud of and will take it to his grave someday about what an accomplishment it was for him. How it still brings the man happiness that he actually did it on his own without any help at all. It was his handling and presentation of the dog that beat our other boy. We would never demean that win by telling him that he could not brag to anyone and everyone that will listen to him. I think that in the end we all have to do what makes us happy. Trying to bust someone else's bubble so to speak by questioning what constitues a worthy win is not something I would feel good about doing so I will not. That is poor sportsmanship. :rolleyes:

[Dobs4ever]

Tidibole - don't tell me it is not worth bragging about. It begins to sound like sour grapes to me should someone start worrying not about the point awarded but who chooses to brag about it. I have never thought it worthy to try to judge someone else's motives. That is up to God certainly not me a humble mortal.

As for my dogs they have accomplished enough that I don't have to worry about what someone else thinks about what I do although it has always puzzled me how people can spend their time trying to ferret out some of the dirty info that they come up with. That is why I said in an earlier thread your mistakes will be there for public dissection - you can't hide and will have to answer so you better get it right. But if you wnat to know what I am doing or why Just ask - I have nothing to hide and pretty much let it all hang out.

I have always stood ready to answer any question thrown at me - So here goes - I will use my Shrockie Poo as an example so no one has to spend hours trying to find out about him - He was shown in the 6 - 9 month class - First time out he took a solid 3rd every day out of 3 puppies - the judge never saw all 4 feet on the ground. I told the handler to not rein him in or crank on him I did not care how he acted I was out for him to learn to enjoy showing. The second set of shows out he took reserve to a 4 pt major (10 or 12 dogs) - then he has 2 other reserves and he is pointed all from the 6 to 9 month class. He has been home growing up and maturing as he got a little gangley.

At the Intl he took 2nd every day - he turned 18 months June 9th the other dog was much more mature and a very accomplished AKC CH so was I disappointed NO!! I still felt at the end of the day I came home with the best dog which I would choose over the others there. There is no dog that will ever beat him in attitude and excitement. I don't want to show him so much he becomes a dead beat and just goes through the motions like I see so much of. He has many other titles we are working towards than just AKC Ch. There is at least one third of the world that scoffs at the AKC ch because they require nothing else to validate the dog and for us who work our dogs it is a joke because it does nothing to evaluate the temperament or the working ability or stablity of nerves.

I am not knocking the AKC Ch it is just not the end all end all to me. There are other things I consider just as important.

It is true here in America the Intl does not hold the same respect as it does if a Euro dog comes over here with the same title because we are not there to see the same thing happen there that happens here. - The dog is judged against the standard and the exact same rules apply and the exact same crap goes on - People who want only a title will always show up - but the key is do they then go on to have any other titles as well. The intl is the intl whether it is here or there - same rules - same guidelines etc.

If you want to knock titles then I will tell you I am not as impressed with an AKC ch that does not at least have a CD and WAC. That is a real CH but should I go around knocking all the Ch that do not have a single other title. but that is me persoanlly it is not written in AKC stone. NO I have too much to do to get ready for my next title so I can BRAG! Like everyone else I do like to have my babies recognized by others because I am proud of them.

For those who complain about who has what title I say get your dog out there and get a title so people can complain about how you got it. I guess some folks would rather complain than compete.

[Rhiannon]

Dobs4ever we would like to put other titles on our dogs when they have finished their AKC championships but it sometimes makes me wonder why if I or my dogs are going to have people question every move we make what would be the point. I have spoken with you personally and would be very interested in putting some working titles on my dogs. However I want to wait until they have finished. I am only capable of doing one thing at a time. We are showing in conformation currently and titling our dogs in several different venues. And with my husband's health currently sometimes a lot of my time and attention are required by him. I believe as you do a well rounded dog is a joy to behold. And I for one will someday be proud to own some well rounded dogs. I know that there will be more posting on this topic as my daughter will be posting her thoughts as well. I know that everyone is entitled to their opinion and that is what makes the world go round but this is almost nothing more than poor sportsmanship in my most humble....honest.....opinion. And I for one have more to do with my time than than spending hours on the computer as you say trying to ferret out any dirt on the competition. This kind of thinking does nothing more than hurt the sport of dogs. :mad:

[tidibole]

Sour Grapes, both of you should be very familair with those. Good Luck...Count me out...And thanks for the photos, Dobs4ever...Dirt and spending the hours on the computer, interesting, given that your lives appear to revolve around not too much more than that...Dobs4ever, how many posts to become the BIG kuhuana?? on how many sites, Rhiannon, lay back until you have enough support to make your opinion worthwhile? Even though "3 strikes' and you are out is apparent??? Sad thing...Both of you deserve each other and I wish you both the best of luck, you will need it!!!!!

[Dobs4ever]

Rhiannon - I am probably CRAZY for trying to do it all - Sometimes I have to let one thing go to complete another - I have to focus on either working or showing so no one knows better than I that you have to do it at your own pace just as you have to let the dog learn at his own pace. I learned last year that I can't do conformation and obedience the same day at the same show. I had too many times that did not match and too many rings I was supposed to be in and juggling was a nightmare. Never again.

Plus one of the dogs in obedience belonged to a client and I was training and showing plus one of my own. When both qualified I had to find someone to take one back in for the long sit and down. Then the other dog kept looking for me and I was afraid that they would break because they did not know the person helping me out.

It is not my business what you show in or don't. The rules say 15 pts with two majors and you get and AKC CH. Period. - There is no where in any rules it is written that you have to have a CD and WAC - I said that was my personal on what I like to see - does that mean that is end all end all NO. There is more but again like you said you just can't do it all and you certainly can't do it all at the same time so you do what you can as you can and let the chips fall where they may.

I have never sought after the popularity contest - I have always felt that I set my own goals and then the method to get there - and I don't need anyones aporoval - The test is in how my dogs do when competing as to what I know or don't know -I am too opinonated for that for sure - hence - The "Nag Hag" and darn proud of it. I would never do anything that might put one single Doberman at risk - and I do far more than many so I know what the heck I am doing and my record stands on its own.

[Mac]

No specific dog in mind...Should there be one? A win worth bragging about, unless used for marketing is one that has competiton, ie, a dog from the classes for points and breed over specials! I have been in a position to be 1st without competiton, is it worth bragging about, even if a point was awarded? No, I think not..HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BE PROUD of,given the competition. Showing is competitive and therefore requires competiton.. the International although FUN and as mentioned very laid back does not hold the same value as they do in Europe. SECOND place in any venue is not the TOP DOG...and unless it is at a Speciality, nothing more than advertising to those who are clueless and are attempting to purchae a puppy! !!! The proodf is when the same dog that does well without competion can hold it's own whether in the classes or BOB against REAL competion!! Those dogs are hard to come by and that is why so many POWER handlers are out there, I truly think few of us have them. But I suppose if what we want is simply to win then any thing goes and we can inflate what ever we accompolish.. of course, Dobs4ever, without CHEATING, in any respect!!!! And yes Rhiannon, obedience is definately different, it is performance based and even 1 dog with i.e a 199 score should and could be HIT regardless of competiton, the proof is in the puddin" , it is not awarded on gratiuty , emotion or opinion. Any venue to the loser can be made to appear political


Well as for me I am proud of my dog when he wins, with or without alot of competition. The Judge feels he is worthy of the win or else he/she would with hold the win.My boy is also an International CH. and in the AKC ring he has taken at least Winner's Dog each day but 2. In the ring 7 times, he has 5 points. He has had ENOUGH competition to get those points obviously. So as for me and my house we are proud of our boy and his wins. I am certainly not going to withdrawal my dog or return his ribbon and point to the Judge because there wasn't ( in certain people's opinion) ENOUGH competition. Nor would anyone else !
We here at Silverhawk are very proud of our boy Yogi !!

[Dobs4ever]

Tidibole - you knew where I stood on this subject when you posted it. I could not be less than honest on how I felt and still be true to my principals. But if you choose to make it personal and start throwing out insults then I can't do anything to change it. It might be a pattern.

I thought we were talking about who has bragging rights - and I expressed what I felt about those who would question it. I stand behind what I said.

[Rhiannon]

Sour Grapes, both of you should be very familair with those. Good Luck...Count me out...And thanks for the photos, Dobs4ever...Dirt and spending the hours on the computer, interesting, given that your lives appear to revolve around not too much more than that...Dobs4ever, how many posts to become the BIG kuhuana?? on how many sites, Rhiannon, lay back until you have enough support to make your opinion worthwhile? Even though "3 strikes' and you are out is apparent??? Sad thing...Both of you deserve each other and I wish you both the best of luck, you will need it!!!!!

I certainly do not understand how you can start a thread and then when people do as you ask and post their opinions you get mad and leave. It is sad that you feel the way you do and I wish you all the best in the future with whatever you choose to pursue. And my opinions are very worthwhile and I do not require any support to make my opinion worthwhile. This is exactly why so many posters tend to go away after a while on any public forum. Sad but this is the type of behavior that has turned other lists into the nasty vindictive venues that they have become. I thought that you did not want to see this on this site. :confused:

[Dobs4ever]

No I don't know anyone who will return any ribbon. I have had some CD legs that weren't pretty and I got by the skin of my teeth but I sure took the points and would again - it did get the leg. In the end the dog will still have a CD when 3 legs are completed. There is a point system and that is all anyone can go by and to try to second guess the rest is a lot of wasted effort as far as I am concerned. If we followed some people's idea of what counts and what doesn't then everyone would give up showing because it would not be worth it.

As we know some people will just use all the garbage to justify not showing their dog, saying it is too political.

[Dobs4ever]

Well it surprises me that a question is posted - responses are given and suddenly it turns into a mud slinging. Up until this post we were talking about a hypothetical situation according to your statement about no dog in particular- now with one post we are slinging mud because we responded. I have to wonder why the fangs??? Are we behaving like 3rd graders on the play ground - NANA NANA NANA I don't like you???? Is that what we are willing to resort to to prove what may I ask??? But if the above post was meant to be insulting then I got it!!! Light blub on!!!

And for what purpose - Fighting does not accomplish anything - we only hurt ourselves when we start to hurl insults at one another in a public forum.

If I have ever appeared so low as to spout sour grapes then [;ease take me out behind the barn and have a serious sit to with me because I need nieed an attitude adjustment.

If you are timing my time on the computer which really is not anyone's business then that means you are on as much as me or you would not know what I and everyone else is doing so what does that prove? I call that a draw. Maybe we both need a break.

I don't get the 3 strikes and you are out since I was not trying to be in nor have I been entered into any baseball games lately so I guess I dont' get it??? Please tell me who is a little show what is so apparent???

Gosh I don't know about anyone else but I would not wish me on anyone so poor Rhiannon sure doesn't deserve that. I found her post more on the high road than the low road. I don't know her persoanlly and dont' get the statement that we deserve each other as we had not communicated in anyway on the above post - are we a little neurotic today??? Hope tomorrow is better for all concerned.


Sour Grapes, both of you should be very familair with those. Good Luck...Count me out...And thanks for the photos, Dobs4ever...Dirt and spending the hours on the computer, interesting, given that your lives appear to revolve around not too much more than that...Dobs4ever, how many posts to become the BIG kuhuana?? on how many sites, Rhiannon, lay back until you have enough support to make your opinion worthwhile? Even though "3 strikes' and you are out is apparent??? Sad thing...Both of you deserve each other and I wish you both the best of luck, you will need it!!!!!

[magtie]

thread has gone off topic and has become personal