Training

[teehayes1]

Past or present experiance, on what level do you think an 8 month old should be in the areas of obediance, bite work, personal protection, and agility?

[Big Dogs]

This is kind of a strange question but let me try to answer it. First it really depends on the dog and how he or she is developing and some of that depends on the breed. Second before starting any bite work or protection work the dog has to be completely finished with obedience training on and off leash. Again dogs develop at different rates but they have to be proficient in every aspect of obedience before moving on to protection training. As a fellow trainer once told me slow is sometimes fast re-training a dog takes 3 times longer than doing it wright the first time. Some dogs just don't have the necessary drive for protection work but will excel at obedience work so when you ask where he should be at 8months it is difficult to say. There is even more variables with the amount of time the dog is being trained and how competent is the trainer and if his training methods are working with your dog. Sorry for the rambling but there just isn't enough information to give you definitive answers.

[Dobs4ever]

Good question - makes me stop and think - I primarily play games with a puppy up to about 18 months when suddenly he is to the point he actually knows a lot more than he realizes and I can begin to put together a routine based on the foundation work that has been done. By 3 months the puppys will sit, down, stand, back, here and walk in position with luring. These are the exercises we turn into a game and play every day for a few minutes. Obedience is everything as Big Dogs says but I might be different on the protection side. I start this at 10 weeks - I have the helper play tuggy with a flirt rag and am working on building drive and bite and hold on and play tuggy. We work them on the puppy tug starting at about 6 months and at 12 months have them on the puppy sleeve. At 18 months we add the blind and bark and hold. So I see it as a slow building process and you never move faster than the dog is ready to advance. I too have seen good dogs pushed too fast and then it is much harder for them to recover as you have to do some back peddling.

I start tracking at 10 weeks also. I work a puppy box for 3 to 4 weeks and then start to lenghten it out until at 5 months the puppy can follow a straight line track 25 paces. I teach articles off the track as a game of hide and seek. I don't ever want the dog to feel like it is working until we are ready to compete.

Good questions Teehayes1, not easy to answer as each dog is different but this schedule has worked for me.

[teehayes1]

Mac and his obedience training is going awesome and we found a facility & trainer that does weekly protection training on weekends so I took him up the past few weekends. He naturally jumped right in and impressed the heck out of me and others. All the times with tug seemed worth it. A few other dobie pups in his class are older than him and he was at or above there level. I was curious if I was slow or ahead here in Central Ky., of course I have heard the stories of both sides of the spectrum, the dog that did turn on till later in years and the dog that did it all from 6 mos... Our trainer is noting that his usual German Shepherd filled classes are getting more and more dobies.

[Dobs4ever]

congratulatons - sounds like you are on your way. Glad to hear MORE Dobes are getting involved. I get so tired of the GSD folks telling me to get a real dog. I have a superior "real" Dog known as the Doberman!!! I hate hair!!

[teehayes1]

Off leash training today and it went great... If all continues to go well, I may attempt or at least have a chance to put a CD title on my boy!!! But still have a looooong way to go. Was wishing some more members would give me feedback to gauge were their 8 month old was at or around the same age as my boy???

[teehayes1]

Wow... No comments at all? Dissappointed?&@#$ Anybody? Someone at least say "no comment!" Or something... Gee Wiz... We are looking at how many post a day? Or is it me? Did I shoot the sheriff and the deputy???

[Dobs4ever]

Teehayes1 - I will add a comment but was like you hoping others would respond. It is just my method it is not written in stone so I am not directling this at your program just a general comment - I do not work a dog off lead until we are close to going into the ring. Years ago a trainer who I greatly respect told me that when we started training. I think everyone is so anxious to prove themselves that we take them off lead way too soon. Then if they get by with something they learn too quickly that you might not be able to control them so you have to go to other methods.

So mine are on lead until at least 18 to 20 months. I don't want to take a chance on developing bad habits like roaming off, forging, sloppy sits etc. They drag the leash for the recall also. I dont' take it off until much closer to time to enter the ring. It is just my method and works for me. What is it they say - How do you get to Carnige Hall??? Practice, Practice, Practice

My thinking behind this method is that we know at best a dog will proably perform at about 80% of what we teach them in the ring. So the practice has to be correct and the leash allows me to keep them close and focused.

I will add that a dog's defense drives do not mature til 2 - that is why some go on and some don't. I like to see a very possessive puppy over the tug. I don't even mind if they growl as I try to sneak in and get it. When Viper was about 10 months he bit my hubby who always tries to keep toys away form them and drives me nuts. Viper got the toy and my hubby went to try the sneak in and get it and Viper snapped at him - It was not a vicious snap in fact you could tell it was very held back really more mouthing but it was a warning and my husband immediately took the toy and ended the game. That was the last time Viper ever tried that but he always growled and tried to hide it with his paw so you could not get it. Loosing him at 2 was one of my greatest heartaches.

[Big Dogs]

Haven't had time to jump back on here we have been busy which is a good thing. Our protection program goes as a general rule along this time line. Evaluate as early as possible we do tug toys and build confidence all the while incorporating obedience again this is just a guide no two dogs develop at the same rate. We move to a puppy bite sleeve but do not do any serious bite work until around twelve months old and only if the dog is completely obedience trained. We try to incorporate the bite work as a reward after obedience sessions as a reward for working up to the 12 month mark. After talking to several of the vets we use and other trainers I chose not to do serious bite work with my clients dogs until then to help prevent potential injuries. At the 12 month mark we start to do serious bite work. Again every trainer does it there own way and this way has worked for us with some variation but as a whole it is the time line we follow. The one thing through the years I have learned is I will not move on to serious protection work until the dog is completely obedience trained. I have re-trained 2 dogs that some other trainers pushed through to fast and spent months and a considerable amount of there owners money to fix all because someone wanted to make a quick buck. One of the things I always ask people when they say they want to train there dog for protection is why and are you prepared to spend the time and make the commitment it takes to get the dog to what ever level you want it at. As a trainer when a dog leaves us with the owner that has been protection trained to what ever they wanted I feel my name is on that dog and I want the owner to feel confident that not only did he get his dollars worth but he also has a dog he can trust no matter what the situation is and is not a liability. Because as an owner if your dog bites someone he shouldn't have you have two strikes against you right off the bat one he's a doberman and two he is protection trained and a lawyer will have a field day with those things. Sorry about the rambling sometimes I just get in that mode as my wife says! I hate it when she's right all the time.

[teehayes1]

GREAT ADVICE!!! Now that is what I was looking for! Dead on what I was asking for. I think you are correct, I may have worded what I was trying to say a little off. I did a little off leash kinda for my own sake to see where I was at and for my pat on the back. I am anxious, probably way too anxious for results. I know I need to slow down and enjoy. His drive is good, not great but good so showing the tug gets results in obediance. Again THANKS

Teehayes1 - I will add a comment but was like you hoping others would respond. It is just my method it is not written in stone so I am not directling this at your program just a general comment - I do not work a dog off lead until we are close to going into the ring. Years ago a trainer who I greatly respect told me that when we started training. I think everyone is so anxious to prove themselves that we take them off lead way too soon. Then if they get by with something they learn too quickly that you might not be able to control them so you have to go to other methods.

So mine are on lead until at least 18 to 20 months. I don't want to take a chance on developing bad habits like roaming off, forging, sloppy sits etc. They drag the leash for the recall also. I dont' take it off until much closer to time to enter the ring. It is just my method and works for me. What is it they say - How do you get to Carnige Hall??? Practice, Practice, Practice

My thinking behind this method is that we know at best a dog will proably perform at about 80% of what we teach them in the ring. So the practice has to be correct and the leash allows me to keep them close and focused.

I will add that a dog's defense drives do not mature til 2 - that is why some go on and some don't. I like to see a very possessive puppy over the tug. I don't even mind if they growl as I try to sneak in and get it. When Viper was about 10 months he bit my hubby who always tries to keep toys away form them and drives me nuts. Viper got the toy and my hubby went to try the sneak in and get it and Viper snapped at him - It was not a vicious snap in fact you could tell it was very held back really more mouthing but it was a warning and my husband immediately took the toy and ended the game. That was the last time Viper ever tried that but he always growled and tried to hide it with his paw so you could not get it. Loosing him at 2 was one of my greatest heartaches.

[teehayes1]

More GREAT ADVICE and feedback!!! I think we are at the puppy tug playing stage, nothing serious but at 8 mos its about time to determine whether serious or not. I think I am just using his drive as a training tool. Sounds like ur program promotes the ultimate success for the dog and yourself. Its always awesome to tap into a the mind of a dog trainer without getting a bill for it!!!! Haaaaa Thanks Big Dog! Haven't had time to jump back on here we have been busy which is a good thing. Our protection program goes as a general rule along this time line. Evaluate as early as possible we do tug toys and build confidence all the while incorporating obedience again this is just a guide no two dogs develop at the same rate. We move to a puppy bite sleeve but do not do any serious bite work until around twelve months old and only if the dog is completely obedience trained. We try to incorporate the bite work as a reward after obedience sessions as a reward for working up to the 12 month mark. After talking to several of the vets we use and other trainers I chose not to do serious bite work with my clients dogs until then to help prevent potential injuries. At the 12 month mark we start to do serious bite work. Again every trainer does it there own way and this way has worked for us with some variation but as a whole it is the time line we follow. The one thing through the years I have learned is I will not move on to serious protection work until the dog is completely obedience trained. I have re-trained 2 dogs that some other trainers pushed through to fast and spent months and a considerable amount of there owners money to fix all because someone wanted to make a quick buck. One of the things I always ask people when they say they want to train there dog for protection is why and are you prepared to spend the time and make the commitment it takes to get the dog to what ever level you want it at. As a trainer when a dog leaves us with the owner that has been protection trained to what ever they wanted I feel my name is on that dog and I want the owner to feel confident that not only did he get his dollars worth but he also has a dog he can trust no matter what the situation is and is not a liability. Because as an owner if your dog bites someone he shouldn't have you have two strikes against you right off the bat one he's a doberman and two he is protection trained and a lawyer will have a field day with those things. Sorry about the rambling sometimes I just get in that mode as my wife says! I hate it when she's right all the time.