View Full Version : White Doberman Breeder
Valerie M. Bruns
07-21-2009, 02:49 PM
Hi, I'm looking for a white doberman breeder in the northwest suburban area of Chicago, IL or the Wisconsin area. I recently lost my beloved white doberman and best friend of 11 years, 2 months and 22 days.
valeriemb at valeriembruns.com
Please read the information on this link.
http://dpca.org/albino/albino_about.htm
:eek:
Valerie M. Bruns
07-22-2009, 07:16 PM
I understand reputible doberman breeders are anti white dobe and I don't care. My "Lizzy" was the sweetest, most well behaved dgo loved by everyone. Get off your high horse and allow us who love our dobermans to have what we want, life evolves and nothing stays the same forever.
magtie
07-22-2009, 08:00 PM
Please read the information on this link.
http://dpca.org/albino/albino_about.htm
:eek:
not sure i agree with this statement from the link provided
"Albinism is a deleterious mutation which affects the whole body."
calling albinism a "deleterious mutation" is a rather cold and ignorant way of putting it.
leaves a bad taste in my mouth
Dobs4ever
07-22-2009, 08:00 PM
Valerie - To support something that is disqualifed from showing and against the very standard of our breed only feeds the money hongers who continue to breed them. A fawn would be a much better choice and be acceptable. Why choose to swim up stream against all honest and best interest of the breed. I wish you no ill - but you won't find support here. If you are bent on getting an alibno then perhaprs you should check out the white forums.
RelicDobes
07-22-2009, 08:36 PM
I understand reputible doberman breeders are anti white dobe and I don't care. My "Lizzy" was the sweetest, most well behaved dgo loved by everyone. Get off your high horse and allow us who love our dobermans to have what we want, life evolves and nothing stays the same forever.
Wow! It isn't about being on a high horse....
It is about caring about the breed. About making sure that breeders and buyers are supporting dogs that are healthy as well as beautiful. White dobermans need to be factored out of all doberman breeding pools.
Why do you think the AKC has marked all white doberman bloodlines with the 'z factor'??? because they don't like how they look??? NO! Because they are unhealthy and should not be bred!!! EVER!!!
Please, look into rescue if you want a white doberman, do not go out and support some idiot who thinks they should be breeding unhealthy dogs....
The DPCA knows what they are talking about, they are the experts on the breed, please take a look:
"We know that these dogs are photophobic, (sensitive to sun light). They have vision problems resulting from abnormal development of the retina.
They are prone to skin cancer and skin lesions. Due to the lack of pigment, they are extremely susceptible to skin damage from the sun.
Poor temperament is a significant concern. Due to the intense inbreeding to obtain the mutation, the temperaments on a great many are totally unstable. These problems range from fear biting to outright vicious attacks. Shyness is prevalent. Most are not suitable for homes with small children. Yes, there are exceptions, but hardly enough to make them acceptable to most families.
In addition to the above problems concerning health and temperament, these dogs have a total lack of breed type."
Thanks you dobs4ever and Relic for the post and explaination.
Valerie, I merely directed you to the facts on albinos. The only high horse I ride is a Tennesse Walker and they are great. I do share the view of the Doberman Club of America regarding Albinoism. This is why I posted the link.
If you are seriously wanting a white dobie, I would suggest you contact the rescues. They should have one if they are healthy enough to place. I wish you luck. Most of the people on this forum do not support albino breeders due to documented health problems that are determental to the breed.
Our view has nothing to do with your dog. Personally, I'm glad you gave the dog a wonderful home and am amazed at her age. The White doberman club gives you a award for having an albino that lived 7 years. She was acceptional and not the norm.
Dobs4ever
07-23-2009, 10:31 AM
RKCM - excellent post. You put it very well. I wish people understood we are not against them - we are interested in protecting the breed and its standard. That is the first white I have even heard of living to that age - that is a big rariety for sure.
Valerie M. Bruns, if you would like to share the parents of your dog, maybe we can help you further. Living for 12 years is great for the dog and for you. Personally, I would love to know the pedigree.
I believe when you buy an albino, you support the breeding of them. If you have ever visited those that do suffer from the many problems of albonism......you might feel different. And they do suffer with many problems.
Your dog was indeed acceptional and since you were looking for another one...I'm assuming you did the right thing and did not breed her. Good for you.
Big Dogs
07-28-2009, 10:37 AM
First I'm not a breeder but I do train and evaluate dogs and owners. Looking at this from a different prospective and I would like to say this is not meant as an attack so please do not take it that way. Loosing a great dog is never easy as I think we all can agree on but I think you fell in love with the breed not the color. What made Lizzy special was the breed and what you made her into not her color. Here are a few things to consider albino's due have more health issues and your lizzy was fortunate to live a long healthy life but that is not the norm. I personally feel that dobermans have enough health issues as a whole and I would rather have the odds stacked better in my favor. The other thing is and I think you would agree she is un replaceable so finding a white doberman just like her is like trying to find a needle in a hay stack it just won't happen. I always tell my clients don't get hooked on a color get hooked on a breed and find the temperament and personality that matches yours. I will say this by eliminating the other colors you have severely cut your chances on finding a dog as close to Lizzy as possible. Just something to consider.
Great post and I couldn't agree more. I think Lizzy was acceptional and I mean this sincerely.
You might consider a fawn. I don't know much about the delutes and prefer reds and blacks, but they are just as much a doberman.
This is an old thread but I think educational. An albino in all mammals carries known problems. In my view when you truly care about a breed, you would support what is best for the dogs.
When you buy from BYB, you support them. When you buy from puppymills, you support them. When you buy Z or albino dobermans, you support them.
I hope this poster found a nice fawn....not albino or Z. We all learn more each day. We all make mistakes, none of us perfect, but I think it is so important to understand BUYING a dog from any of these situations, supports their practices.....which many times is not the best for the dogs we love.
I have heard many times, I rescued this dog. When you buy dogs from these, you are not rescueing the dog. Real rescues spay and neuter the dogs and have a donation and there is NO PROFIT. If you bought the dog from the actual breeder, it was not a rescue....it put money in the pocket of that breeder and is not a rescue. Real rescues don't pay for dogs, they save them and offer them to the public. They are not the breeder and the rescuer of their own breeding.
Just had to add this to this thread....You support what you buy.
Panama
08-09-2010, 10:15 AM
This is something I have been trying to educate people on for years and will continue to do so as long as I live an breath! Yes, all puppies are cute, but like you said... you support what you buy, therefore keeping these breeders in business. I say business because that is exactly what they are doing, breeding for the sole purpose of making $ off their dog's backs. They aren't breeding for the betterment of the breed or trying to reduce the health issues the breed already faces that's for sure.
Sorry, very sore subject for me, but I'll get off my soapbox now.
Rhiannon
08-09-2010, 11:34 AM
Panama and RKCM you are not on any soapbox. I always find it funny when someone joins posts 1 or 2 posts gets defensive and then disappears never to be heard from again. Just as she appears to be passionate about her belief that whites are not what most say they are does not mean that she is correct and does not mean that any of the rest of us are wrong if we do not feel passionate about the whites. And really this is not even about who is right or wrong. It should simply be that it is not healthy breeding the white doberman... they are more prone to serious problems so why add to the already horrendous health problems that the dobermans currently have like Cardio, wobblers etc. I will never understand how anyone can justify anything positive about the white dobermans considering they are not acceptable do to the health issues and temperament issues with the DPCA. I will also add here that she was fortunate to have a white live to the age of 12 as it is becoming more and more common unfortuately in our breed to be loosing dobermans at even much earlier ages. This is what we as breeders try to focus on the health, longevity etc. not capitalizing on the rare colors of the dobermans that just make my blood boil whenever I run across these ads. Heck I don't even breed for blues and fawns do to the issues with them as well but I am not out there attacking anyone who breeds them or owns them because they are acceptable with the DPCA but just not my preference as a breeder and exhibitor. And yes you are right RKCM the only high horse I ride is my 16 hand quarter horse Big. LOL. :D
Hall's Dobes
08-09-2010, 12:15 PM
i find this captavating as we only have 2 colours over here,black and Tan and Liver and tan.You do get the odd fawn but it is extremely rare.I guess we do not have that problem in the UK with the albino's.
Rhiannon
08-09-2010, 12:21 PM
I am guessing that when you say liver and tan you are talking about what we call red and rust over here. Is that correct? It is fun to see what other countries call the different colors of dobes.
In the UK, I believe the standard only allows blacks and reds, as call them.
I am not fond of the blues or fawns either. There are some really nice ones in that color and I have admired them as beautiful animals. Unfortunately, many are poorly bred and have bad coats......not all though. We have no delutes either but a good dog is just a good dog, except Z's which are known to have more hidden problems.
Z factored or albino......both should be fixed and never bred. Albinos in all mammals have defeats.....even the white club awards a 7 yr old with longivity. I mean 7.......on the other hand dpca awards longivity at 10. That alone makes a statement.
Hi, I'm looking for a white doberman breeder in the northwest suburban area of Chicago, IL or the Wisconsin area. I recently lost my beloved white doberman and best friend of 11 years, 2 months and 22 days.
valeriemb at valeriembruns.com
why you wanna support a breeder what breeds albinos ???
and Z factor means not they are albino, it only means they might carry the white gene and might can produce whites, but it dosen't mean they have hidden health problems at all. I know red?brown dobe's with the Zfactor and blues , fawn ect. too. Soon one z factor popped up in the pedigree, the following puppies will be a Zfactor.
and Z factor means not they are albino, it only means they might carry the white gene and might can produce whites, but it dosen't mean they have hidden health problems at all. I know red?brown dobe's with the Zfactor and blues , fawn ect. too. Soon one z factor popped up in the pedigree, the following puppies will be a Zfactor.
Any dog that goes back to a white dog in their pedigree is marked with a Z on their pedigree by AKC. Z factored can be any color. It also means that Z factored dogs may have inherited the genes for blindness, deafness, and all the other problems associated with albinoism. They should never be bred.
I think that's what you meant by"pops up" LOL.
Welcome to the forum and glad you are posting.
Any dog that goes back to a white dog in their pedigree is marked with a Z on their pedigree by AKC. Z factored can be any color. It also means that Z factored dogs may have inherited the genes for blindness, deafness, and all the other problems associated with albinoism. They should never be bred.
I think that's what you meant by"pops up" LOL.
Welcome to the forum and glad you are posting.
i been member here for awhile, but never really posted here and yes i agree with they shouldn't be bred at all, so why then the OP is so hot to find a albino breeder and support it. Go to a rescue, there are enough dobe's in need there
I agree, I wondered the same thing myself. She seems to have posted and left quickly. Hope she read the posts and decided on another color. And yes, she should have a lot of rescues to choose from.
Glad you started posting. We can learn from each other and we hope you will stay with us. Welcome
von Cosack Dobermann
08-09-2010, 04:42 PM
The albino color or lack of color (condition)is not a recognized feature in the Dobermann breed standard so in my opinion it isn't a Dobermann. I would never turn down helping anyone that owns one of these dogs but to consider supporting someone who produces this feature is ridiculous, their not machines to change the color to suit your favor. This is a well constructed breed with obvious colors that are accepted by the original breeders (founders) and the organizations that govern the well fare of the breed. The gene pool being so small is a scary factor in the purchase of one of these animals, the chance of medical issue along with albinoizm is huge. von Cosack Dobermann
The albino color or lack of color (condition)is not a recognized feature in the Dobermann breed standard so in my opinion it isn't a Dobermann. I would never turn down helping anyone that owns one of these dogs but to consider supporting someone who produces this feature is ridiculous, their not machines to change the color to suit your favor. This is a well constructed breed with obvious colors that are accepted by the original breeders (founders) and the organizations that govern the well fare of the breed. The gene pool being so small is a scary factor in the purchase of one of these animals, the chance of medical issue along with albinoizm is huge. von Cosack Dobermann
Good post, Von and glad to see you back. I certainly agree with this,as does many of our other members.
The member requesting an albino breeder has the information and we just hope she will take the well meant advice.
Rhiannon
08-09-2010, 10:23 PM
Hey Von, definitely glad to see you back and posting. Hope your recovery is coming along we sure have missed you posting on here. Here is hoping that you are better every day. Take care of yourself.
When it comes to albino accidental breedings, sometimes ya just have to scream.....lol
http://www.dobermanhub.com/general/2009/01/25/the-whitealbino-doberman/
Link above is a brief article on them.
Do they have them in England?
Glengate
08-12-2010, 02:54 PM
Do they have them in England?
They do have them in England. There was a "breeder" there that imported one, in whelp I think, several years ago. I seem to recall that the breeder there was Dobenar? Something like that? And she had the gall to show one there, too. As I recall, it was placed 4th out of 4 but I remember the albino "breeders" in the US crowing at the time about how one had placed at a show in England.
I thought in England they could only be black or red? Are you sure it was there?
Most Albinos are of such poor quality.....that's amazing.
Glengate
08-12-2010, 04:49 PM
I thought in England they could only be black or red? Are you sure it was there?
Most Albinos are of such poor quality.....that's amazing.
Yes, I'm sure it was there. I have followed the albino situation for a long time, and am responsible for creating and maintaining the Canadian Z list. I used to read any public albino boards so that I knew who their players were and would never make the mistake of getting involved with one of them.
The situation was probably the same in England as it was in Canada. Our standard, until recently, didn't have a specific disqualification for dogs not of an accepted colour.
I tried to post a url to a board where the situation was being discussed in 2005. Apparently, I am not allowed to post a url because I don't have enough posts here.
Glengate
08-12-2010, 05:03 PM
Because I can't post urls, do a google search on dobenar white dobermans. It will bring up her English site, and it will bring up a discussion board where they were talking about her showing one in 2005.
Here is the link to the English standard:
http://my.execpc.com/~dober/standard.html
I really am not familar with the different shows over there, except for crufts. Not sure why a judge would put up an albino when it is not the allowable color...but I guess they can't disqualify it. 4 out of 4 isn't a win...it's dead last.
That's interesting......just a shame anyone would want to breed them with known problems....I guess, it's because they can??? Sad.
Panama
08-12-2010, 06:25 PM
From the looks of her site, I wouldn't be surprised to one day see a white minpin on there.....
She said her dogs were tested for Albinism... yet shows no proof or results and provides no link to any such testing info.
Panama
08-12-2010, 06:28 PM
Here is the link to the English standard:
http://my.execpc.com/~dober/standard.html
I really am not familar with the different shows over there, except for crufts. Not sure why a judge would put up an albino when it is not the allowable color...but I guess they can't disqualify it. 4 out of 4 isn't a win...it's dead last.
That's interesting......just a shame anyone would want to breed them with known problems....I guess, it's because they can??? Sad.
I couldn't find any pictures that actually showed the dog's registered name, so I don't know which dogs are listed on her show results.
Glengate
08-12-2010, 09:50 PM
Here is the link to the English standard:
...
I really am not familar with the different shows over there, except for crufts. Not sure why a judge would put up an albino when it is not the allowable color...but I guess they can't disqualify it.
Exactly. It wasn't a disqualification. Just a fault to be penalized to the extent of the deviation. I don't know if they've changed the standard since then there. Canada did, and got it added as a DQ.
Glengate
08-12-2010, 09:52 PM
I couldn't find any pictures that actually showed the dog's registered name, so I don't know which dogs are listed on her show results.
I don't think her listed show results went back far enough? The bitch she imported in whelp (whelped in quarantine ... nice) was from Lysa Rector, whose kennel name is Phantom, I think. So I'd assume the bitch's name starts with Phantom.
I don't think her listed show results went back far enough? The bitch she imported in whelp (whelped in quarantine ... nice) was from Lysa Rector, whose kennel name is Phantom, I think. So I'd assume the bitch's name starts with Phantom.
Glengate, I know you agree with me on this. We appreciate your information. Poor dog...whelped in quarantine....that's just plain mean! Geeeze!
I guess, when you have a box of rotten apples, eventually all of them go bad & that's sad.
Albinos in all mammals have serious health problems. The white doberman club gives an award if the dog lives to 7....the DPCA gives an award for those dobermans that live to 10. Now neither are long enough in my view, but ya have to be a real nut or not care about the breed at all to intentionally breed a dog with known defects as serious as albinos....or Z's and know they live an even shorter life. To me that's not very nice.
Albino and Z breeders do not care about the health of their dogs. And when people purchase dogs with these defeats they support unethical breeders. And remember, a rescues are not rescue, if you are paying the breeder for the dog. I have repeatedly heard of accidental Z breeders etc......the fact is if you don't want pups you have your dog fixed.
There should be no congrats to a breeder with albinos.....because it is the dogs that suffer from skin problems, deafness, blindness, sensitivity to light, cancer..........I mean how do you congradulate that if you love the breed?
Panama
08-13-2010, 08:58 AM
Unfortunately, Albino & Z breeders continue to produce litters. They sell their pups for far less then the average pet pup from an ethical, responsible breeder (although I've seen some ads for whites $1,000 and up). Most first time Dobe owners know they just want a Dobe. When they see $1,000 - $2,500 prices, they freak, but then see Joe Schmoe selling pups for $300-$500. they jump on it! I know a few that have paid $800 for a pup only to find out later what the Z means in their registration #.
Panama
08-13-2010, 09:18 AM
I don't know if this falls under this section or not, so if there is a better place for it, by all means, please move it to the appropriate area.
I just got word yesterday that one of the female dobes I fostered a few yrs ago had to be PTS. Cheyenne was an owner relinquish at 1 yr old, and was turned over with her AKC papers. Low & behold, her registration # started with WZ. An outgoing girl, but a bit hyper (yet social) and her eyelids kept wanting to turn inward and she would not let anyone near her head. Anyway, she was adopted in record time. 2 yrs later, she turns up lame in the front. Being in a somewhat active family, they just thought maybe a tweek. It got worse so they had testing done... Blastoma (any "oma" is cancer). Her leg & shoulder had multiple aggressive tumors and within months was progressing to her lungs. Treatmenst weren't helping, so they decided to put her down rather than experiment any further.
Whether this has anything to do with her being Z Factored, I don't know, potentially, yes.
That is so sad for that dog and that's why some of us are so relentless in standing up for Z's and Albinos. It is the dogs that suffer.......the people who bred them r usually long gone. SAD.
When our breed is face with so many health problems, why would anyone try to produce known problems. I blame the breeders and see no reason to coddle them. They fool people, don't tell owners the truth and sometimes long after they are attached to the dogs. While there maybe few that don't have all these problems, it is a risk. But hey! When you pay the breeder, they are down the road and the poor dogs suffer.......the point is shame on that.
I have also heard of breeders that didn't check the registration papers and worked a pedigree that didn't show the Z.....breeding to one. And I can tell you that those that support or breed albinos will tell ya anything to get to a good dog......
Shadowlands
08-13-2010, 12:13 PM
It is a shame that the member that first posted the question of an albino breeder didn't stay on long enough to read what everyone had to say. The one point that everyone missed was maybe she liked the attention of everyone asking her what type of dog she had. I know I haven't seen any albino dobermans in my neck of the woods and I also know that if I saw what I thought was one, I would surely ask if only to find out the breeders.
I checked out that site too and I must say that the "white and cream" dobes don't look right. Did you notice that there is no consistency in her dogs?
I am not a fan of the diluted coat colours, I guess I'm a die hard fan of the traditional reds and blacks.
But I agree that anyone deliberately breeding (showing???? Crazy!!) Z factor animals should be shut down. Money is a great motivator to a lot of people.
You would think though that with information on everything imagineable at our fingertips, people would be more educated about these things and make better choices. Just my personal opinion of course.:D
Glengate
08-13-2010, 12:24 PM
You would think though that with information on everything imagineable at our fingertips, people would be more educated about these things and make better choices.
Oh, but they'll research the ipod they're going to buy and throw away in 8 months but not bother to look into their family companion of hopefully the next 10+ years.
Anyway, if any of you looked at the dobenar site, I hope you noticed that she mentioned one of the dogs living in Germany now. As I recall, one of the albino breeders in the US also exported one to Finland. They are out there, and I'm sure that some of those countries have no tracking system so those of you who import have got to be just as careful to research pedigrees.
Now that's scary.....
When our friends across the pond wake up, I'm sure they will have suggestions on that one.
Shadowlands
08-13-2010, 01:37 PM
I think what gets me is that those of us are out there to BETTER the breed are the ones against breeding Z factors dogs. When you compare the diseases and afflictions that affect our healthy dobes to the other breeds (yes, there are other breeds out there besides ours!! Shocker I know!LOL), why would anyone want to add more problems? The ONLY answer I can come up with for this is money. Using words like "rare", "unique" etc is what catches the eye of potential buyers.
I can see why legitimate breeders ask (when geographically possible) to meet potential buyers. The breeder I am dealing with now will only sell a puppy when she has done an in-her-home interview. She has found over the years that people like the 'idea' of a doberman, but don't alway understand the 'reality' of being owned by a doberman. Part of the ritual is being greeted by her dogs in the house. She leaves them in the kitchen via baby gate. She said those that are wary, won't even come in the house. They stay on the porch and keep peeking back as the three bark as soon as the doorbell is rung.
My point is that she wants to place them in their forever homes from the start and is trying to better the reputation via the breed in doing so. She pushes training, participating in the O'Grady study etc.
These other so called breeders (I hate using that term for these people) don't care about the breed at all. On that site, she compared a siamese, a horse and a doberman to having the same genetic code. Fine, they all have the same code, that doesn't mean that it affects each species the same. With dobermans it is proven, not myth, that albinos have temperment, longevity and overall health issues.
Our dogs don't live long enough now, why deliberately breed with a shorter life span that will include 99% accuracy for illness (and pain?)?
I am sure that was done by a few but those that really love dogs don't put dogs down unless it in pain regardless of the color or country.
Panama
08-23-2010, 10:10 AM
"Culling" years & years ago was totally different than it is these days. Culling way back when was a death sentence period. Now, culling is done by evaluation. Pets are placed with strong emphasis on spay/neuter or altered before placement.
If someone hadn't seen a greedy way to make $ regardless of the consequences of what they were actually doing to the breed, we wouldn't have this issue. Should Sheba have been "culled", IMO, YES!
Heretic
08-23-2010, 06:38 PM
I am sure that was done by a few but those that really love dogs don't put dogs down unless it in pain regardless of the color or country.
Personally I cannot imagine a genuine animal lover killing off apparently healthy new life, but that's the rumor.
One thing is for sure - intentionally breeding for fawn and blue Dobermans is exclusively American. Gotta admit it though, many people in the states acquire Dobermans strictly for looks without knowing/understanding the breed - hence the demand for 'exotic' colors. If someone just wants to stick a dog in the back yard, then they need to get a GSD - imo.
Personally I cannot imagine a genuine animal lover killing off apparently healthy new life, but that's the rumor.
One thing is for sure - intentionally breeding for fawn and blue Dobermans is exclusively American. Gotta admit it though, many people in the states acquire Dobermans strictly for looks without knowing/understanding the breed - hence the demand for 'exotic' colors. If someone just wants to stick a dog in the back yard, then they need to get a GSD - imo.
Breeding for color is not what the breeders I have dealt with do and they are American and Canadians. I have seen a few nice blues and fawns...Some excellent and a good dog is just that ....The greeders always advertise them as rare which isn't just right.
When you say "exclusively" American I am just not sure that is accurate, as there were links for even an albino in Europe. Like any group and especially in the states it all depends in who you are dealing with. Not all Americans are alike, have the same ethics, or do things just alike.
Albinos are not a color and something no breeder should reproduce due to health issues.
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