Buyer BEWARE :Thunderstorm Dobermans

[duffeesgrl78]

I will make a very long story short. I bought a puppy from Lance and Heather Landes of Thunderstorm Dobermans of Indiana. I paypal'd Lance $2150 for a happy, healthy black male doberman puppy. I was told that the puppy had "popped a stitch" from playing with the other puppies, and was told that antibiotics were being sent with him, because the vet had to stitch it back up, before they could put the puppy (Sparticus) on a plane to Phoenix from Indiana. I was NEVER told anything else about the condition of the dog. As far as I knew and from the way his other dogs looked on his website, I thought he was a reputable breeder. BOY WAS I WRONG !! He advertises that his dogs are show quality, yet doesnt do dew claws. He advertises that the puppies come with a HEALTH GAURANTEE, yet when you have an ISSUE, he isnt there helping, he's the one causing the problem. Telling you not to bother to e mail him, because he will DELETE them on site. Thats what I call BREEDER SUPPORT> Anyways basically my gorgeous little man he sent me was so jacked up from head to tail. LITERALLY. My baby's ears were fried from their Vet. He was emaciated .The laser crop was a war crop and not a nice MEDIUM length, like advertised. And his tail was sooooo infected and still is by the way ( a week later) that he may end up losing what little tail he has left. Due to the negligence of Lance and the Vet that he willingly takes these poor helpless puppies to. Only to be hacked on and not given the proper care, that they deserve. I would like to just get the WORD out there to further protect any future doberparents, who are looking around. HIs web site is nice, his adults look nice, and he is nice on the phone. Until you actually need him to stand behind his phony gaurantee's. Then his TRUE colors SHINE THROUGH !!. PLease feel free to copy my pics and paste them on your own personal blogs and websites, so that you may help me pass the word on ,that this breeder needs to be shut down......Be a voice for the puppies who dont have one>




I have pics, but I cant post them until I have 15 posts? I guess

[dobiesoul]

did you check out any references on him prior to your purchase? I've seen some pretty bad references to him on other sites. I'm not looking for a doberman, but after seeing pictures of him and his "wife" on his website, I would not buy anything from them. I hope your pup gets better after all that he's been through already. Glad you have him now and can turn his ideas around about human beings. Good luck.

[Dakota]

I've posted the pictures on my own website with a warning to never buy pups from this breeder.

This story really hit me hard when I saw those pictures... terrible breeder.

[jonarde]

I purchased a littermate to your pup. Here is an e-mail exchange between Lance and me concerning the condition of my pup when he arrived. I leave it to the reader to draw his/her own conclusions:

Subject: Re: Planned
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:51:59 -0800

Hello Lance --

I want to update you concerning the pup we received into our home a week ago last Saturday. First, I want to thank Heather for the incredible effort she put forth providing me pictures of Angel and taking him in the middle of the night to the airport. She kept me informed along the way which was very much appreciated. Please convey my sincere thanks. I know it's part of her "job" and she does it many times over, but it is still a lot of work. And, of course, thank you for your part in making it happen.

The pup now has a name -- "Cosmos". He'll probably be called Cosmo for short because it's easier to say. Anyway, there are some health issues that we had to immediately deal with that I think you would want to know about as a breeder. First, he was very thin. His hips and ribs were predominantly showing and it was noticeable enough that several people who saw him within hours of his arrival independently commented on it. As I am writhing this, he has gained enough weight to make this a non-issue, but it was a concern when he first arrived.

Secondly, there was a note taped to the crate from the Houston kennel of Continental Airlines, advising that a whole worm was seen when the pup pooped while waiting for the connecting flight to Sacramento. The note advised immediate Vet attention upon arrival. Of course, Cosmos has been dewormed again and, although I have not yet taken a poop sample to the vet, I will do so soon and expect no problems. I don't know how to explain the presence of a worm because I know the pup was dewormed according to a schedule as indicated in the paperwork. The paperwork indicated that another "injection" was due Jan 30. By "injection", I assume it was meant "deworming". Because it was due on the day of shipment, it didn't get done until I was able to get the pup into the vet.

Lastly, I was warned by Heather that the pup had broken the wound on his tail open in the course of being crated. She indicated that the stitches has been removed the day prior. When he arrived, the stump was bright red and bleeding very slightly. The tail, of course, has been attended to and minor surgery has been performed to staple the end closed as much as possible. He wears an e-collar which, of course, is a pain in the ass for both him and us. If this doesn't work, a more major procedure will have to be performed to remove enough tissue to allow complete closure by stitches. I do not anticipate this being necessary, however. The vet commented that the wound looked as though the tail had been docked later than 3 days post birth.

Although none of the above issues will present long-term problems, you can understand the concern they presented when combined with one another... the pup arrived looking thin, sporting a bloody tail stump, with a note on his crate that he has worms and should be seen by a vet immediately! Perhaps the solutions could include leaving the stitches in the tail to avoid the possibility of the wound breaking open. I'm not sure how to address the worming -- perhaps ensuring that any procedure due on the date of shipment gets done before being shipped. It might also be helpful to have a couple days worth of antibiotics come with the pup since it usually takes a few days to get into a vet.

Cosmos is a great pup and seems to have adjusted to his new surroundings. He is a lot of fun and we look forward to enjoying him as he matures. Thanks for your and Heather's part in getting him to us.

--Jonarde


Subject: RE: Planned
Date: 10 February 2010 9:51:20 PM


Hi again Jonarde . I will pass along the compliments to Heather for her hard work and effort . I am also glad to hear that Cosmo is doing well .
I would like to explain some of the things that you have expressed concern about . First of all let me apologize on my wife's behalf . This is her FIRST litter in which she has handled most every aspect of . I am concerned she did not address some of these issues as I myself always have in the past . still this is not an excuse .
Let me address the issue with the tail docking . All of our puppies ARE docked at 3 days of age . However this is never cut and dry ( no pun intended ) . Often the mothers lick the puppies tails obsessively and the tails develop an unsightly scar mass at the end of the tail . when a particular puppy has one of these lumps of scar tissue , we pay our vet to remove it at the time of ear cropping . ( obviously at no charge to you ) . Many breeders would just leave this lump to look not appealing for the rest of the dogs life . However we feel that the end result to have it removed is a much more appealing look , and therefore have the lump removed to better complete the " finished look " of the doberman . Often puppies lick or bite at the sutures , and then the tail becomes open . Which I thought my wife had explained to you . I'm sorry if she did not.
AS far as the under weight issue : ALSO , I ( when handling all the final details ) make an EXCESSIVE point to stress that the puppy will ALWAYS be underweight upon arrival . This is due to a few factors , the primary being that the puppy has to go 24 hours without food . ( 12 hours prior , and 12 hours post ) . This is to prevent any food being in the stomach in case the the puppy would aspirate under anesthetic .
secondly , there is obviously the stress of the procedure , and the shipping . This ALL contributes to the shape in which the puppy arrives . As you are now seeing your puppy is picking up weight fast and will continue to do so . I can assure you with any puppy from this combination , his arrival is certainly the LAST time you will ever be seeing him thin .
AS far as the worm issue . I myself wormed wormed your puppy 2 days before his departure . However I do know how it could take place that the airport in houston would say they saw a worm . when the worming medicine takes effect it kills worms for 2-3 days . Upon taking effect the puppy will pass dead and dying worms . They stop holding on to the walls of the intestine and pass out of the puppy as they are dead or dying .
AS I wrote on the bill of sale " puppies constantly are reinfecting themselves with worms and worm larvae , and should be continued with worming regularly ( per your vets personal instructions ) until six months of age .
At which time the puppy will only need worming every 3 months . ( or per your vets request ) .
As far as the " injection " date . As it is written on the vaccination record it says " your puppy will be ready for another vaccination on ......... ( the date ) . My wife wrote the next vaccination date in that area of the paperwork , as I did not being as how I performed the first vaccination and my wife performed the second one .
" Injections" are for vaccination only . ALL worming is done but an oral tablet .
I hope this helps explain some of the things I myself did not , and that I thought my wife had addressed . I certainly wanted to respond to you e-mail and make things a bit more clear , as to what you had experienced and why .
Feel free to let me know if you have any other concerns . and please feel free to keep me updated with comsos' progress . You truly will have a beautiful mature doberman in about a year . And Im sure you will be even far more pleased then you can even imagine at this moment .


Thanks , LANCE LANDES

[Dobs4ever]

Jonarde - Thank you for posting this. Anyone who has every had anything to do with showing, breeding, breed clubs etc would know better than to every buy a puppy from this breeder. It is required by the airport to put last feeding date on the fight info and it has to have been within 4 hours. So the without food for 24 hours is a lie unless he uses some off beat airlines I am not aware of. They have to have 2 food dishes in the crate and food taped to the top silly since I know the airlines will not feed them but none the less. They do not want any puppy hungry.

If puppies are wormed correctly and kept clean they will not have worms. I have mine screened several times and have never had a puppy with worms so that puppy was thin due to poor feeding and malnourished plus worms. In puppies this can cause health problems down the road.

If the flight is long the puppy can look sunken in in the tummy area until fed but you should not see bones and ribs - this is clearly a lack of proper feeding and care.

Puppies should be put on heart worm preventive at 4 months - this usually takes care of worms so the til 6 months is strange. A puppy should never be underweight at arrival.

He is pretty correct on the tail. I also have mine repaired if they need it at ear cropping. Funny comment: "at my expense" Whose expense would it be but the breeder?

So this is Heather's first litter??? - My gosh she has been there all along. I don't think either one know how to correctly care for the dogs and now he openly admits he has pushed them off on someone else - why just to make money???

Sorry that you had this problem. Hope Cosmo continues to do well.

[RKCM]

Sorry for your problems with your puppy and we hope Cosmo is doing better.

I don't know this breeder and I prefer a different type of doberman and will not address the kennel. I think it is hard on a puppy to be shipped and I much prefer to visit.... maybe he just had too many to notice things. I do not understand what the rush was to ship the puppy with a healing tail and not properly wormed or thin. So sorry your puppy had to go through all this and you.

We hope Cosmos tail healed and he is doing better. Very disappointing to get a puppy with worms, a bleeding tail, and thin. I'm glad he has a good home and hope he is doing well now.

Welcome to the forum and we look forward to hearing more about Cosmo.

[Dobs4ever]

Jonarde - Sorry I forgot to say welcome to the Hub. If we can help you with your puppy just let us know. It is not his fault where he came from. We hope to see pictures soon.

[duffeesgrl78]

Wow I am actually surprised that Lance was that cordial with you. I got alot worse treatment from him. I wasnt as nice as you were to them though either. I basically sent him before/after pics (the second day I had him) of how the tail looked, how it looked after my vet fixed it. How the ears looked, then how they looked after my vet fixed them. Then I asked for a refund of $550 that it cost me to get the vet to re crop his ears, fix his tail and the vet did the dew claws for free since the puppy already had to be put under. Either way, I was treated like shit, and so was my dog. So I will NEVER recommend ANYONE buy a puppy from them.I will continue on my crusade and get the word out through the internet that they are GREEDERS. Only looking out for them and have no concern for the beautiful babies they are shipping across the country.

[RKCM]

I have reread these posts and am so sorry that this has happened to two people on the forum. Like I said, I prefer a way different type of dog. I am not defending, nor would I defend this breeder. I don't know him and only viewed the website which was not of interest to me, nor would it be somewhere I would buy a doberman.

I would like to say that most people don't give too much greed to forums and blasting people and even, fewer read them that buy puppies. Blasting or warnings happens all the time on forums and sometimes it's justified and some times it is not. We all have very strong feelings about this breed and how they should be treated and not all are the same. The same goes with breeders and this is why you should have visited the kennel if you were not sure of his practices etc. You should have read the contract more carefully to ensure you have some recourse on this type of thing or not sent him that much money on a puppy until you knew what you were supporting. It is a shame you have to do that but it is just life and some people don't do like we think they should. I guess, the bottom line is you support what you buy and you supported this kennel. WE ALL have made mistakes and you aren't the first to make the wrong choice. No one is perfect. I feel bad for you both, but it is what it is........but mostly, I feel bad for the puppy that arrived with a bleeding tail, thin, and wormy......:mad:

I hope you will post some postive things on the forum about your new dobermans. Since you are keeping him, I feel sure that you have some of those positive things to share on the forum. Also, posting gives other people an idea about you and the reasons you bought your dog or what wonderful things you wanted to do. Just think that would be nice. We all make mistakes and this is just my honest opinion.:cool:

Welcome and again very sorry you had this experience.

[Dobs4ever]

I think when two people come on with a problem with one breeder we are seeing a pattern starting to form. I appreciate them coming here and sharing their story. Hopefully it will help some future innocent from being taken in by this breeder and their less than stellar practices not to mention the breeder misrepresenting things. A quality breeder would recognize an under nourished puppy with worms.

[RKCM]

I think when two people come on with a problem with one breeder we are seeing a pattern starting to form. I appreciate them coming here and sharing their story. Hopefully it will help some future innocent from being taken in by this breeder and their less than stellar practices not to mention the breeder misrepresenting things. A quality breeder would recognize an under nourished puppy with worms.

4Ever, I am not disagreeing with you but what I was saying is that people need to either know who they are buying from or go there. I have no defense for this breeder and would never buy anything from this kennel. But then, I have been around for a long time and seen a lot. I believe you support what you buy and if you aren't sure, either don't buy from them or go there and see for yourself. I did wonder how in the world they selected it and wondered if they had a contract. I appreciate them sharing and feel really sorry for them, more so for the puppy because the tail thing and shipping sounded horrible! I do wish I knew who they were and why they bought their dog, pet, working or what? Not that it matters, just that I'd like to know what happen to the puppy etc. Don't you? And I gave my opinion that you have to be a little more careful in this world.

No one said he was a quality breeder and we read the response. I think you know I know better than that.

[Dobs4ever]

RKCM - In today's world global economy it is unrealistic to think that everyone meets everyone and rides off into the sunset. Regardless of how anyone does business there is an unspoken vow of faith. We as breeders above all should be honest and we really can't be so ill prepared that we make mistakes. Our clients count on us. I can't find fault in someone who innocently got taken. If they did not know better how can we then lay part of the blame at their door??? And for your info I do know what happens to my puppies every single one and have the reputation to prove it. Both families felt comfortable enough to buy the puppy in good faith and had no reason to doubt what they were told. Integrity does not diminish with distance. It is nothing today for people to purchase things from web sites. We all do it all the time and have to trust that the implied honesty and integrity is there. That is why people have web sites.

[RKCM]

This post wasn't about you and your ethics or website. Although, websites can be very confusing, Not all are for selling puppies and some aren't honest. I was asking about their dog and what happened to their puppy. Just a sad story all the way around.

[duffeesgrl78]

As to defend myself...I did not know that I would get my pup in that condition...obviously I was convinced that he was a reputable breeder. I do not show, nor do I do any kind of sport. I lost my last dobie and waited 5 years to get another one. I am not an expert on the breed or breeders for that matter. I looked at doberman breeders in Az but either didnt find one I liked, or couldnt find one that was having puppies this year. Yeah I was ignorant and I believed what they told me. why wouldnt I?? People buy puppies from the internet all the time...not all end good but I trusted that because this guy had a website and what he said on the phone sounded legit, there was no reason to doubt him. Like I said I was ignorant. But it is what it is, and I got an unhealthy puppy. But with much love and many vet visits later I have the most beautiful boy ever.With the most amazing personality. Thats what really makes this whole thing even worse. I truly believe Lance from Thunderstorm Dobermans is using good breeding stock. Its obvious with the temperment of my boy...but the way they are ignoring their(puppies) his care is disgusting!! I just wanted to warn people not to trust them like I did. Yeah call me red neck, whatever,Im not...I just love my boy and he will have a wonderful life with me and my kids.

[RKCM]

Thanks for coming back and letting us know about your puppy. Thanks to you he has a better life. We are all sorry you and the puppy had to go through all this, sincerely.

I wasn't putting you down, but when we pay people for a dog, we help them continue breeding. That is all I meant and if I received a puppy in that condition, I'd be more than red-neck. Just sometimes you have to be careful because you don't know and not everyone has the puppies best interest at heart.

If this is typical of his practices, that is sad. I don't know the people and just know that your puppy went through a lot. I hate shipping puppies but it is done everyday. I would worried too much and it just isn't worth it to me in most situations. I understand your situation may have been different.... So Sad. Thank you for coming back and letting us know he has a happy life now. I hope his tail healed and you are now enjoying him. Thanks to you he has a good life.

Yes, I have heard that his Euro dogs come from a well known kennel. I am not fond of the Euro dogs in general but all dobermans are beautiful little gifts, regardless of where they came from. Best Wishes to you.

[Dobs4ever]

I will contribute this on shipping as I have shipped puppies from the beginning. If the puppy has a stable temperament, has been properly socialized it is a GREAT experience for them and they sail through it. I have never had a problem with it and neither have my families. Yes i have had some puppies arrive late but again stable temperament and proper socialization are the key, otherwise there is a problem bigger than shipping brewing.

As a new person you had no way of knowing and as I said when you do business of any kind anywhere there is always an implied trust. Even if you go meet someone there, they are on their best behavior and you can make just as big a mistake. So going there is not as big a deal as we might believe. An honest person is honest and trustworthy regardless. Just like all businesses there are good and there are bad apples. The bad apples get all the headlines.

[duffeesgrl78]

As soon as I have 15 posts and can post pics I will. Sparticus is a very LOYAL and protective boy. He is great with my 4 kids and my 3 other dogs. It is sad that thunderstorm dobermans does business like that, and unfortunately if I could I would put them out of business. But we all know just me alone cant do that. Thats why I do post about my personal experiences and I have the photographic proof to back it up. Its not just heresay. I will keep posting and sharing my experiences just so if anyone does do research on forums like this or googles "Thunderstorm Dobermans" this will pop up in the search. It may not help a whole lot, but it is helping a little cause I have already had numerous people contact me who were almost going to get a puppy from Lance at Thunderstorm dobermans, but they saw my posts, and I sent them the pics and now they decided to look else where. Im happy with that. Yeah he is still breeding, but maybe if he doesnt sell his pups as fast, he will slow down and have less. I dunno...just a thought???:confused:

[Dobs4ever]

Good for you and glad you are here. We want to see pictures. He does come from some good Euro bloodlines - not his fault - That is how quickly poor breeders can run down a good bloodline. I have seen it with several "breeders" not just TS. What makes me sick it it just amazes me with all the good breeders out there how so many people get pulled into their web site. Why ? Why are they so easy to find and everyone else so hard??? do they just advertise everywhere so that is how you find them???

Anyway Hope Sparticus is on the mend and back to normal soon. Post pictures when you can

[jonarde]

I informed Lance Landes of these postings and, am posting his reply as I feel it is the fair thing to do. Once again, I leave it to the reader to draw his/her own conclusions. I have omitted the last name and phone number of the vet he refers to:

Subject: RE: Planned --Update
Date: 10 April 2010 5:19:05 PM

well I am glad that you are choosing not to verbal assassinate ME or my wife for any issues regarding this matter . I Honestly wish instead of thinking that we are trying to make up excuses , for the issue with the tail , and contact our vet and simply ask so that you might in fact ACTUALLY have " the facts " . About this tail issue .
I can only imagine what you must truly believe since my explanation wasn't accepted .
I can however tell you what is fact , and you can in turn , verify the facts by a simple phone call to our vet .
Your puppy , was examined by our vet , and was issued a health certificate , by a licensed and well respected vet , He was wormed every week while he was here and since he was 5 weeks of age .
His tail was docked when he was 2 days of age , and his tail was repaired by our vet , at the time of his ear cropping .
I am sorry that you might think that this is not the case . And I do truly understand that this tail issue has certainly been a huge ordeal . This is unfortunate , but it was done with only the best intentions for a nice finished tail .
I hope that you would understand that , and that I myself had nothing to gain by ANY of this . Our intentions were in the right place . We have had several of our OWN dobermans here in our program with their tails repaired also . Brahm bones for an example had his tail repaired at 8 weeks , However we did not have much of any trouble and his tail healed up fine .
My wife and I have nothing to gain by causing ANYONE or any of our dobermans or dobermans produced in program any harm . We have worked far to hard to achieve the things that we have in the years we have invested on a daily basis with our dobermans , and our program to jeopardize all that for any reason would be senseless .

We have now issued new protocol , and in the future , when we have to have puppies tails repaired , we will not allow ANY puppies to go to their new homes until their ears and tail are 110 % healed . Also we will send 2 doses of worming for their new owner to administer them to the puppy themselves , so that they might know without a shadow of a doubt that their puppy has been given wormer , because the new owners will be able to administer the pups wormer themselves also .
These above mentioned things will in my opinion alleviate any of the issues that you have experienced , for others in the future .
Worming meds only cost $5 , per puppy , per week from 5 weeks of age on . I know you may not accept this either , but for $15 - $25 per puppy , ( depending upon how long they stay here ) , I have VERY little to gain by not supplying them with wormer . In fact I have everything to LOOSE . So I would at least wish you to consider that aspect of things .
I have been the owner of a successful tattoo studio for the last 10 years . I have 7 artists that work for me , and one of southern indiana's busiest studios . I did not get this way by cutting corners , and producing bad products , or cheap methods .
And I am the exact same with our dobermans . We traveled the world to find and import what we feel to be exceptional quality dobermans . And I would not exhort so much of my time , money , and efforts to intend to produce and put out poor quality or unhealthy dobermans either . That is simply not the case . I don't think you would have come to be interested in purchasing a doberman from us if you didn't like what you saw on our website , and believed what was written there .
Like anything else I do in life , I stand behind what I do . And I would like to help reimburse you for any vet bills that you might have had , do to this tail situation .
I would however , appreciate as a return courtesy , if you would take the time to speak with my vet about the situation with your pups tail . That way you would at least hear from my vet that she performed this procedure , and that it is a common practice . Rather than thinking I don't even know what .
If you would contact Sue H at 812-xxx-xxxx , or I can have her contact you if you would rather .
I appreciate the manner in which you contacted me , and I want you to be certain that I will reimburse you for any costs you might have incurred with the tail . we stand behind what we do and produce , and I will be happy to reimburse you .
I would also be happy to speak with you about all this on the phone as well . If you would like to call me anytime at 812-xxx-xxxx.

Thanks , LANCE LANDES

[duffeesgrl78]

Thats funny that Lance offered to reimburse you for your vet cost cause he didnt offer me. He told me to send the dog back to him at my exspense and he would give me a full refund. I didnt want to send the dog back, especially after I saw the condition of him. And worming once a week for 6 months is extreme...Obviously whatever wormer they used wasnt killing the TYPE of worms our puppies had. I had to pay $20 for 1 pill from my vet. So $5 for the wormer is alot cheaper than what I paid. And it wasnt working, obviously. My pup was soooooooooooooooo infested it looked like he was pooping spaghetti noodles, all over my yard. It was disgusting. Sorry to be so graphic, but it wasnt just a mild case of him having worms. It was really really bad. His tail didnt just come with a stitch popped.It was severely infected. The vet had to remove and additional 1/2 inch just so he could stitch it back up.It was swollen like a golf ball on the end. Then me and my husband had to poke the end of it with a needle to drain all the infection out of it. We nursed the poor little guy for the first month we had him. We have had him 2 months and he's gained over 30 lbs. To me thats alot of weight for a puppy to gain. I wasnt as nice to him as you are being, I sent him before and after photos and told him I was reporting his vet, and also that I wanted a refund for the vet. Or $$$ back, because I no longer had a show quality dog,but a pet quality . I had already had a handler for Sparticus that was going to put him in puppy matches to start him out, once she saw how short his ears and tail were, she said he no longer could be shown. I dont show nor do I know anything about it.But thats why I wanted to get a dog from Lance. He sold Sparticus with full registration, most breeders dont. So basically I pissed Lance off by telling him that, so he told me if I email him again, he will delete them on sight. Either way, I am blessed to have my baby boy. Hopefully Lance will put as much effort into his "breeding program" as he does his tattoo shop. I do think he breeds amazing dogs. Everything that was wrong with our puppies are from negligance on his part, and a really crappy vet. Im glad to hear he wont be shipping the pups out with stitched tails anymore. Thats great.

[Dobs4ever]

It is funny that with mounting pressure he finally agreed to reimburse one of you but not the other. Had he just done it right the first time he probably would not have had these problems. Puppies with worms can cause serious problems down the road. FYI the correct worming of puppies starts at 2 weeks not 5 so more misinformation. Once a puppy gets worms they are much harder to get rid of for some reason.

Duffiesgrl78 - I would contact him again and see if he is ready to help out. Good breeders keep puppies til ears are healed and tail repairs are done. Of course it eats deeply into your pocket as they eat like little horses if you keep them longer so money might be the issue but it is the right thing to do.

[duffeesgrl78]

They never even sent me pics of the mother like they were supposed to, or the 4th generation pedigree... I really have no desire to ever have contact with them again. I may send them updated pics of his progress, buts thats about as far as I will go. They had their chance on several occasions of me calling them, and emailing and they chose to turn their backs on their problem they created... Sparticus is very very loved and well cared for now, and I feel blessed to have him as apart of our family. Looking into his gentle eyes every morning makes me know it was alllllllll worth it.

[Dobs4ever]

Good for you - Glad you are putting it behind you. Good dogs alone is not the entire answer as you see the breeder is the other half of the equation - their great vast knowledge in all areas, training, raising puppies correctly to maximize their potentional, proper health care of those puppies tilt hey leave, proper care of the bitch prior and after whelping, nutrition, ear cropping, tail docking, etc. so many things that play a part.

[RKCM]

They never even sent me pics of the mother like they were supposed to, or the 4th generation pedigree... I really have no desire to ever have contact with them again. I may send them updated pics of his progress, buts thats about as far as I will go. They had their chance on several occasions of me calling them, and emailing and they chose to turn their backs on their problem they created... Sparticus is very very loved and well cared for now, and I feel blessed to have him as apart of our family. Looking into his gentle eyes every morning makes me know it was alllllllll worth it.

Enjoy Sparticus and glad he has a great home. You may already know this but you can get a pedigree from AKC.

[duffeesgrl78]

Thanks everyone

[duffeesgrl78]

I just uploaded pics of what he looked like when I got him....Everyone who was wondering about THUNDERSTORM DOBERMANS, see for yourself

[freeze3kgt]

wow, those are horrible pictures of him, im glad your getting him better

[my2rotties]

Where are the pictures? I am a dummy and don't know where they were uploaded to...

As sad as this situation is... no dog ever comes into your life by mistake and I a sure fate put you with your pup. I hate that people take unsuspecting buyers and do this to them.

[Panama]

they are in duffeesgrl's profile in a photo album.

http://forums.dobermanhub.com/album.php?albumid=67

[COKEEFE]

We also purchased a puppy from Thunderstorm kennels after our dobe of 13 years passed away. I have also raised some pups from my old girl. Unfortunately, I came upon Lance's kennel. He has lied to many about his crop at 3 days of the tail he tries banding the tails and they are not very good at banding as my dog still has problems with her tail she is now 1 year. When we first saw her at 3 weeks she was very sickly looking and with a huge pot belly. They took us to a kennel which Lance assured us was a temporary thing that the dogs go to his home where there is room to run. We came back several weeks later to pick up our pup who had a huge pot belly, smelled horrible but the mom in me wanted to save this little thing even if it cost me money to save. Strange but true. Her worms were so bad I could feel them in her stomach on the way home. The next day the worms began to come out of her full size and well over a hundred. We whisked her to the vet and began deworming. she had so many worms they were crawling out of her in her carrier. She was skinny and emaciated and he claime to have wormed her. After seeing her condition I had her ears done by my vet. She still is skinny after a year and very hyper. we love her and yes she is pretty but she has some aggression issues which stem from intense fear of other dogs. We have tried numerous times to work her though it but it has been a long road. So buyer beware. Yes a pretty dog but I regret continuing helping Lance and his wife continue this abuse of such a wonderful breed. also, taking a trip to his kennel all the dogs were very very skinny and Arte the mother of my girl had her pups taken away early so he could hurry up and breed her again. We felt so bad for all the dogs but we could only save one. As for Lance, we told him about the problems and he dismissed them and we had trouble with the papers because Arete was not his dog but on loan. all his info on the web is simply bogus. Stay away from this so called breeder.

[Panama]

OMG, that's horrible. I'm so glad I have 2 wonderful breeders to work with.

[concerned for our future]

This is really nice to know as I have an email from them asking to purchase one of my females. Thanks for the heads up.

[raja]

I recently bought a dobberman ( setember 2010) from Thunderstorm kennels The dog has great temperment, great markings, ears and tail were done perfectly . Everywhere we go people notice him. We took him to my daughters college campus over the weekend and he did extremely well with all the people at 5 months of age. I came from Wisconsin to get him and it was well worth it.

[von Cosack Dobermann]

Decided to take a peak at the site the dogs in question were from. I see NO dog that can be described beyond Pet Quality on their site. Theres nothing to get excited about and nothing that I see should be bred. The talk on the site is from obvious novice people who are stuck at size and weights and the dogs mid/ to high drive temperament, hell their just about all like that hahaha!!!! This is just another so-called breeder trying to take advantage of the Euro "Thing" and use obscure titles from obscure dogs to try and make them sound as if they won the IDC. Being the champion of Serbia is like being the champion of east Utah, not much of anything. The American public doesn't know better and these kinds of people get their rap down quickly and have a dog that can hit a sleeve and do some OB and the people buying think its great. Hopefully they have health on their side and will stand behind their pups, we have one member who declares they haven't so thats not a great sign. I'd look else where for sure. Von

[Panama]

I've never been the least bit impressed with either their dogs nor their sales tactics.

[RKCM]

I recently bought a dobberman ( setember 2010) from Thunderstorm kennels The dog has great temperment, great markings, ears and tail were done perfectly . Everywhere we go people notice him. We took him to my daughters college campus (penn state) over the weekend and he did extremely well with all the people at 5 months of age. I came from Wisconsin to get him and it was well worth it.

Raja, glad you are happy with your dog. He is yours and we all wish you well.

While I prefer not to comment on this particular kennel, I do think that overstating titles is common to sell dogs. My opinion is that a "supersize" is not better for many reasons. All dobermans should have bone, substance, and correct structure. There are exceptional dogs and very poor quality dogs in both countries.

In this country, an AKC champion title is much more difficult to obtain than an UKC champion. A UKC may not have competed against any doberman and simply the only dog entered. Although, they can be good dogs in either venue and doing something with your dog is better than doing nothing. I would trust Von's comment on what is a good title in the other venues and countries.

If you don't do your homework in purchasing a dog, there are people that will tell and claim all kinds of titles. If you don't know, get a mentor that does. You support breeders by buying their puppies so while it's unfortunate that people are deceived it happens around the world. Just like selling beach front property in Arizona.

[raja]

I agree with you on breeders. He never claimed it to be supersize. Matter of fact, he said a dobs should not be any bigger than 100 lbs. I was not looking for a dog other than just a pet. So how I evaluate a dog would be different than someone who shows , breeds, etc.. I can say the dog is extremely athletlic. I run him 15 plus miles a week off road and off leash. He goes to the dog park and plays with a large variety of dogs. He can hold his own against much older/larger dogs. He can jump like a basketball player. Also, plays ball non stop. I have own some very well breed lines of german shepards that came from a breeder for the Milwaukee police department. Raja matchs up well with those dogs. I am not saying anything other than my dog seems to be very good. I would like to know how to train a dog to jump over things. My dob really seems to like to jump.

[RKCM]

Welcome to the forum, Raja.

I am really glad you are happy with your dog. All dobermans deserve the best and once he is yours.....there is no better dog. I have seen rescues that turn out to be wonderful dogs too. I am glad you didn't take these post wrong. I know nothing about this breeder except what has been posted here. Since I show dogs, they are not what I would buy. It doesn't mean your dog isn't wonderful and one thing about dobermans......they are a wonderful breed. Congrads to you.

Post the training question on the training forum and you'll get more posts.

Nice post. all dogs deserve a home and wonder if Raja is still on the forum?

[Aesa]

i'm sorry for what you all went through. but if you had made your homework better, you would have safed a lot of pain and money. gezzz for that kind of money you could have done so much better, thats for sure.

[raja]

Thanks for sharing this information. I respect those that speak up for their dogs and you did that Raja.

Sad story about the problems with this kennel but it is the internet and ya never know. This is why I have rescues. I have no interest in breeding and just want to enjoy and train my dogs to have a great life.

Raj is doing well and we love him dearly. I have to admit though that had I seen this post prior to our purchase I would not have purchased him from this particular breeder. The pictures that were posted were terrible. That being said, I am glad I didnt see it or we would not have the pleasure of knowing and loving Raj!

[lewisipso]

Thanks for sharing this information. I respect those that speak up for their dogs and you did that Raja.

Sad story about the problems with this kennel but it is the internet and ya never know. This is why I have rescues. I have no interest in breeding and just want to enjoy and train my dogs to have a great life.

I agree. However it may be the internet but non skilled persons such as myself depend on forums like these to help point them in the right direction. If a person has a bad interaction with a kennel, posting that experience is a help in my opinion. It can be done tastefully or diplomatically. Forums are where I do a lot of research on subjects when I need to.
I also have no interest in breeding and just want to enjoy my dogs. The circumstances surrounding Arielle have just about made me a complete believer in rescues. A rescue will probably be where we turn next instead of a direct breeder.

[nterry]

Buying a doberman that comes from a top bloodline is expensive and for many a rescue is the answer. We don't have many here and have trained a few to advanced levels. Shouldn't matter if you aren't breeding. I assume all the rescues are fixed before placement. That is the way it's done here.

[Pitts]

I was wondering how long it would take for this to hit the forum here with someone bashing it, and I have to say I am very unsurprised to find it to be our friend Jim.

I understand that people may not like this dog or that dog or whatever and thats fine, but bashing people and attacking them and their dogs is going beyond the line. Its down right arrogant and assanine. It just kills me and blows me away that people have nothing better to do than troll other forums looking for stuff to bring back to their forum and attack and bash. I mean come on isnt that a little bit ridiculous.

Now, this is NOT a breeding done by Von Doom, I know this to be true, and the fact is, he isnt even the owner of the Doberman Chat forum any more. So again, your throwing out rumors that arent true.

Special Rescue, you are right, you do get passionate, and there is nothing wrong with that, I know it comes from your commitment to the dogs and your love for them. And to hear you admit to that and apologize for offending people or insulting them speaks volumes to your character. Thank You.

I just wanted to clarify a couple of these things, as I knew there would be falsehoods and rumors and accusations flying here, by the usual persons, and I just wanted those here to know a little more of the truth.

As for people choosing pups from particular breeders, well thats their choice, and we should stay the hell out of it, after all, it really is none of our business, unless those people personally ask us for our opinion.

Just some thoughts.

[raja]

Wow. Here we go again.....old thread raised from the dead.

[Beamer]

Wow. Here we go again.....old thread raised from the dead.

Old thread maybe, but (always) something new with them to warn perspective puppy buyers about.

To me, it looks like the bitch was sent to Thunderstorm for breeding or they are advertising the litter in Indiana to keep attention away from Michigan. Look at Thunderstorm's list of dogs, the sire of this new litter isn't even listed. Not Von Doom's breeding? Please! Guess they needed to breed her to a dog that was actually registered BEFORE being bred in order to make a buck!

[MountainPonies]

Lets try and keep to the Facts

1. Owner of another doberman forum is buying a puppy from a litter whelped by Thunderstorm Dobermans
2. Dam of Litter is owned by the aforementioned forums previous owner
3. No health testing is listed in OFA database for either Sire or Dam
4. No health testing is listed on the website for either Sire or Dam, however there is this statement on the website: "Our pups are from complete health tested parents , both sire and dam. Come with a lifetime health guarantee against most all of the breeds common genetically acquired disorders, or diseases". I would want to see the contract - but this does say both sire and dam are completely heath tested.
5. True structure of any dog cannot be assessed from photos alone, and especially not bad photos where the dogs are not stacked in the accepted way. Therefore, even though these dogs do not appear to have correct conformation - we don't really know. The roach back some one mentioned as a structural fault, occurs all the time with dogs that are not used to being stacked. Since neither dog is stacked in the photo correctly - even by euro standards, the roached back is probably more a result of not being stacked often, than any real structural defect.,.
7. This must be a Thunderstorm litter, with Thunderstorm being the breeder since the litter is being promoted on their website, subject to Thunderstorm pricing, Thunderstorm contract and policies.
8. There is not mention of this being a co-breeding or a partnership breeding with any one. It is purely conjecture and speculation that the "previous forum owner" has any further involvement in this litter other than owning the dam.
9. Thunderstorm offers a program much like Kimbertal where buyers can get a free doberman. Quoted from their Website: "Would you like to own one of our top quality Doberman Females at no cost to you ????" Buyers can choose to do son on a Breeding contract.
10. A Breeding contract would mean that the owner of the Dam would not be the breeder of the litter, their only responsiblity would be to return the dam to Thunderstorm at whatever date in the future they decided to use their contractually required breed back.

My opinion: I personally do not like the "look" of either sire or dam as presented. From the photos it does not appear that they are good representatives of either american or euro type dogs. Before proceeding any further with a puppy from this litter, I would want to speak to the breeder, visit the breeder if possible, and I would want more photos of each parent and even video of each parent and the pups if i could not go visit.

As this thread continues, lets try and stay away from conjecture and gossip and stick to the facts, which IMHO speak for themselves.

[Beamer]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't the OWNER of the bitch the LITTER OWNER? Therefore, the owner of the bitch is very much involved in the breeder of said bitch, unless she changed hands completely.

My Beamer came from a lady that whelped the litter for someone else. She was not the actual breeder, she just whelped the litter. Therefore, the owner of the bitch (not the lady that whelped the litter) was listed on Beamer's pedigree as "breeder".

Am I misunderstanding the ownership part of a litter?

[MountainPonies]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't the OWNER of the bitch the LITTER OWNER? Therefore, the owner of the bitch is very much involved in the breeder of said bitch, unless she changed hands completely.

My Beamer came from a lady that whelped the litter for someone else. She was not the actual breeder, she just whelped the litter. Therefore, the owner of the bitch (not the lady that whelped the litter) was listed on Beamer's pedigree as "breeder".

Am I misunderstanding the ownership part of a litter?

If Thunderstorm Leased the female back for breeding, then they, as the LESSEE of the female would be the sole Breeder and the the owner of the litter when whelped. It depends on what terms of the "breeding contract" is.

[Beamer]

Sorry, ain't buyin' it!

[Pitts]

Lets try and keep to the Facts

1. Owner of another doberman forum is buying a puppy from a litter whelped by Thunderstorm Dobermans
2. Dam of Litter is owned by the aforementioned forums previous owner
3. No health testing is listed in OFA database for either Sire or Dam
4. No health testing is listed on the website for either Sire or Dam, however there is this statement on the website: "Our pups are from complete health tested parents , both sire and dam. Come with a lifetime health guarantee against most all of the breeds common genetically acquired disorders, or diseases". I would want to see the contract - but this does say both sire and dam are completely heath tested.
5. True structure of any dog cannot be assessed from photos alone, and especially not bad photos where the dogs are not stacked in the accepted way. Therefore, even though these dogs do not appear to have correct conformation - we don't really know. The roach back some one mentioned as a structural fault, occurs all the time with dogs that are not used to being stacked. Since neither dog is stacked in the photo correctly - even by euro standards, the roached back is probably more a result of not being stacked often, than any real structural defect.,.
7. This must be a Thunderstorm litter, with Thunderstorm being the breeder since the litter is being promoted on their website, subject to Thunderstorm pricing, Thunderstorm contract and policies.
8. There is not mention of this being a co-breeding or a partnership breeding with any one. It is purely conjecture and speculation that the "previous forum owner" has any further involvement in this litter other than owning the dam.
9. Thunderstorm offers a program much like Kimbertal where buyers can get a free doberman. Quoted from their Website: "Would you like to own one of our top quality Doberman Females at no cost to you ????" Buyers can choose to do son on a Breeding contract.
10. A Breeding contract would mean that the owner of the Dam would not be the breeder of the litter, their only responsiblity would be to return the dam to Thunderstorm at whatever date in the future they decided to use their contractually required breed back.

My opinion: I personally do not like the "look" of either sire or dam as presented. From the photos it does not appear that they are good representatives of either american or euro type dogs. Before proceeding any further with a puppy from this litter, I would want to speak to the breeder, visit the breeder if possible, and I would want more photos of each parent and even video of each parent and the pups if i could not go visit.

As this thread continues, lets try and stay away from conjecture and gossip and stick to the facts, which IMHO speak for themselves.

you are a smart intelligent, true voice of reason and hit the nail on the head.
IE, von did not breed this litter or even choose to, when your under contract you must honor that agreement. MP, I wish there were more level headed people like you around, you always impress me.

[Pitts]

Pitts, the health testing was questioned and the post quickly removed. If the dogs were health tested, why not just clear that up?

And why haven't people questioned the topline of this dog? If this is the type of information we can expect, someone there needs to find a new leader. And if I remember correctly they aren't the only ones that claim to be experts and are spreading the know it all attitude and breed this? WTH

it was not quickly removed, it was moved due to the bashing starting, when this was absolutely never a thread about the breeder, but just about someone excited to get a puppy, and for people to turn that around just so can have someone to crap on is just plain sad.

[Pitts]

Sorry, ain't buyin' it!

that is simply because your just another.person who signed up here immediately with an agenda, just to bash and crap.on people, you wouldn't buy anything that differs from your own agenda.
Your sad really to have to be that kind of person.

[nterry]

you are a smart intelligent, true voice of reason and hit the nail on the head.
IE, von did not breed this litter or even choose to, when your under contract you must honor that agreement. MP, I wish there were more level headed people like you around, you always impress me.

Pitts we all are aware that the founder of DC did own this bitch. He may have sold her or bred her to honor his contract but she is not worthy of breeding and surely not representative of our Euro dogs. Maybe he should of just given her puppies to this man from the 1st breeding and returned her. That's reasonable to me, not breeding a bitch without testing (if that's true) and not of this quality either. There is a problem when I see no health testing anywhere on these two dogs. Are you aware of the health testing done? Or does that not matter to you?

And MtPonies when a dog stands roach back with hocks out naturally, there is a problem in structure, picture or in person. It is what it is. Bone is clearly lacking. My assessement along with a rounded croup that couldn't possible assist the dog in working for long.

I don't blast but will not make this something it is not, and that is a proper Euro dog. It is a excellent example of what europeans will not breed.

[nterry]

that is simply because your just another.person who signed up here immediately with an agenda, just to bash and crap.on people, you wouldn't buy anything that differs from your own agenda.
Your sad really to have to be that kind of person.

I don't think this personal attack on a new member is warrant. This is an open forum where we don't insult people, we talk about dogs. If these people bred this dog and it appears they did, it sad for them.

Did your forum EVER say anything about the health testing on this litter? Did you EVER question the structure of what is clearing not proper?
This is a pure example of why people are down on that forum and I think my friends here are correct, it's misinformation. Puppy Pushing on a forum is not proper, nor is pushing these off as euro dogs when they lack in many areas. it gets to my lad when you speak without purpose and breed lacking more than purpose. This is our breed. My country and I resent very much Americans that misrepresent these dogs with this type of breeding. These dogs will not work and if they do, not for long. Structure can't be that lacking.

And yes, you can evaluate from a photo. These are natural stance and it gives away the major flaws. Why dispute what is right there? Picture don't lie.

[nterry]

[QUOTE=Dobs4ever;8987]Jonarde - Thank you for posting this. Anyone who has every had anything to do with showing, breeding, breed clubs etc would know better than to every buy a puppy from this breeder. QUOTE]

I am assuming that this was not stated on the commericial site.

[Pitts]

Nterry,
I do not disagree with you at all, I have not said anything at all about the sire and dam, other than to say, I know von did not do this breeding and was only honoring a contract.
Understand, I was in no way defending the sire and dam, I was simply statung thatnits a crappy thing to do to take a thread about a puppy and turn it into a completely different subject that starts a bashfest. I just think if people want to put down this kennel then fine, but don't do it off of the back of the puppy owner. That is all I was saying.

[Pitts]

Oh and as for testing, I have no idea, again, I am not even discussing the sire and dam. Though after looking at pics on that site, I would say, I prefer much more substance and bone in the euro dogs.

[nterry]

Nterry,
I do not disagree with you at all, I have not said anything at all about the sire and dam, other than to say, I know von did not do this breeding and was only honoring a contract.
Understand, I was in no way defending the sire and dam, I was simply statung thatnits a crappy thing to do to take a thread about a puppy and turn it into a completely different subject that starts a bashfest. I just think if people want to put down this kennel then fine, but don't do it off of the back of the puppy owner. That is all I was saying.

Pitts you have no problem going after those that have said this breeding is wrong due to the quality of these so called Euro dogs. Yet, the group is expected to stay silent about something that we see as clearly wrong and misrepresented?

What I am saying is that as a leader in the breed, you need to speak out about things when they are clearly wrong, help new people, and not let them find out after the fact that ethical breeders test their dogs and they evaluate the structure. Clearly the breeders are not capable or ignored the structure. And the health testing I'm suspect is nothing, none, nada. Why wasn't that puppy owner told the truth. Are we overlooking it for some or just not bothering to inform new people of how this hurts the breed and truly misrepresents our Euro Dogs. Very common trick in the usa.

[nterry]

Pitts, I respect you and have no problem with you or anyof these people personally. I am informing those that don't know all dogs should be OFA'd and that's only a part of testing. Also, the parents should be champions in something, especially when this type is being bred. i use to think it champions aren't needed but if this is what the us is breeding, better show them and test your evaluation. Disgraceful.

[MountainPonies]

I wish someone would call the breeder and ask him directly what heath testing has been done on these 2 dogs and report back, maybe Mr. Pitts would do this.

if you click on the pages for the other dogs on this website - some heath testing has been done on each of them.

Please don't misinterpret my comments as condoning or supporting this breeding - I just like to deal with as many facts as I can.

The reason I would go visit the breeder is to see original certificates of health testing. There are breeders who health test and do not pay the extra fee to list those results in the OFA database. If looking for a pet I would want to meet the parents and judge the temperament for my self. If looking for a working dog prospect I would want to see a demonstration of the dogs ability or level of training.

For me personally I prefer a different type of look in a dog, a more standard look of the euro dogs.

[Big Dogs]

Nterry I believe you said there is no good Euro breeding stock in the US and that is because the Europeans would never sell there good dogs to anyone in the states. I'm para phrasing but I think it is correct or am I mistaken?

[RKCM]

Here is the form and I am quoting from OFA form:

I hereby certify that the radiograph submitted is of the animal described on this application and that neither the pelvic nor the elbow conformation have been surgically altered. I understand that the radiograph and/or image submitted will be retained by the OFA. I understand that the radiograph and/or image is submitted for a consensus evaluation based on the independent, professional judgment of consulting board-certified veterinary radiologists, and I hereby release the OFA from any and all liability resulting from the consensus evaluation. I understand the OFA will release normal hip and/or elbow results for dogs over 24 months to the public, and by submitting this application I agree the OFA may do so. Abnormal hip and/or elbow results will not be released to the public unless the initials of a registered owner appear in the authorization box below. Normal hip results are defined as consensus evaluations of Excellent, Good, or Fair. Abnormal hip results are defined as consensus evaluations of Mild, Moderate, or Severe. For the purpose of determining whether or not the results will be released to the public, consensus hip evaluations of Borderline are considered abnormal. Normal elbow results are defined as a consensus evaluation of Normal. All other elbow consensus evaluations are considered abnormal.
Signature of owner or authorized representative____________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________
Authorization to Release Abnormal

[RKCM]

I wish someone would call the breeder and ask him directly what heath testing has been done on these 2 dogs and report back, maybe Mr. Pitts would do this.

if you click on the pages for the other dogs on this website - some heath testing has been done on each of them.

Please don't misinterpret my comments as condoning or supporting this breeding - I just like to deal with as many facts as I can.

The reason I would go visit the breeder is to see original certificates of health testing. There are breeders who health test and do not pay the extra fee to list those results in the OFA database. If looking for a pet I would want to meet the parents and judge the temperament for my self. If looking for a working dog prospect I would want to see a demonstration of the dogs ability or level of training.

For me personally I prefer a different type of look in a dog, a more standard look of the euro dogs.

If you OFA your dog, you will have it published with the results. I think they give you an option if they fail as stated above.

[MountainPonies]

If you OFA your dog, you will have it published with the results. I think they give you an option if they fail as stated above.

Yes that is true RKCM - but if you do your hip certification with the DV - The DV hip cert is not recognized by OFA - it however is well respected and certainly valid.

[Aesa]

DV is the german doberman verein Bites and you can get their hip checked over them with 1 year of age, the x rays are the ssme you need for the OFA. The only difference is the age and hat you send it of to germany to get it checked over them.

[MountainPonies]

DV is the german doberman verein Bites and you can get their hip checked over them with 1 year of age, the x rays are the ssme you need for the OFA. The only difference is the age and hat you send it of to germany to get it checked over them.

Aesa, you are correct, sorry I did not explain in more detail when posting, I thought everyone would know what DV stood for. I appologize for assuming the members of this forum would have this level of knowledge and we know what happens when you assume.

In Europe around 1899, breeders had formed the first Dobermann breed club, which later became the DV (Dobermann Verein = Dobermann Club). This club developed the first official breed standard, which aims to clarify to breeders and fanciers how the correctly bred Dobermann should look and act.

Many breeders, especially with the euro show & working lines prefer to submit their xrays to the DV as they prefer the rating of the DV to a rating from OFA. The same radiographs must be taken as for OFA and actually the same permanent ID and information must be on the radiographs just like when they are submitted to OFA. Again I appologize for not being clearer in my reference.

One final observation, when you are a public figure, and I consider an Owner or a Doberman forum to be a public figure, who actively participates and promotes that forum as an educational resource - who also posts their advice and opinion on a daily basis... has a responsiblity to walk the walk, when you talk the talk. Yes this owner had the right to buy her personal puppy from any where she chose, but how can she on the one hand promote responsible breeding, health testing and list all the things to look for when selecting a responsible breeder to get a puppy from.... and then do the exact opposite. In my opinion, when you are the leader on a public forum, and set yourself up as knowledgeable and responsible about the breed, you have a responsiblity to set an example. I think this is why people got so upset.... it apears to be a case of Do as I Say...Not as I Do, and is obviously the reason for getting so upset once the breeder was discovered.

[nterry]

Nterry I believe you said there is no good Euro breeding stock in the US and that is because the Europeans would never sell there good dogs to anyone in the states. I'm para phrasing but I think it is correct or am I mistaken?

Forgive me if I didn't translate this right. There is some Euro breeding stock in the US that is not truly Euro and some that are the not so good quality. There are good dogs in the states that were sold, but I think the best are not sold. I didn't say NEVER.

[nterry]

So are you saying this pair of dogs has a DV? I did not think that the vets in the US were certified hip except OFA.

All dobermans should be health tested and when you give advise and don't follow that advice you put yourself up to be examined. Doesn't know much if bought this breeding and should not be advising. Choice is always the person.

[Aesa]

So are you saying this pair of dogs has a DV? I did not think that the vets in the US were certified hip except OFA.

All dobermans should be health tested and when you give advise and don't follow that advice you put yourself up to be examined. Doesn't know much if bought this breeding and should not be advising. Choice is always the person.


Nobody said they were Dv certified, we said that can be a possibility to do so. You can order the forms from the DV in germany, go to the vet here, let get the x rays done, then send the x rays with the Filled out form back to the DV in germany and get it certfied in germany. An experienced vets will do the x rays for the OFA and for the DV. My does and even would send it to the OFA if i wanted too, but i chose to get them done over the DV in germany, so i'll send the x rays there.

[Pitts]

I just want to remind everyone, that while it may be true that some here have issues with the kennel mentioned, The fact is that Jan, who owns DC, never wanted to tell anyone where her pup came from, to her it was a personal choice to get the pup, and she did not want to put her choices up to others. She was in no way intending to promote the breeder on her site and was simply trying to express her excitement on getting a new puppy.
Therefore I think we need to step back and not be so harsh in our judgements.

[MountainPonies]

I just want to remind everyone, that while it may be true that some here have issues with the kennel mentioned, The fact is that Jan, who owns DC, never wanted to tell anyone where her pup came from, to her it was a personal choice to get the pup, and she did not want to put her choices up to others. She was in no way intending to promote the breeder on her site and was simply trying to express her excitement on getting a new puppy.
Therefore I think we need to step back and not be so harsh in our judgements.

Sorry - but that just does not make any sense - yes its her personal choice but as a responsible, experienced, and educated owner, why on earth would she choose to make the decision to buy from a BYB? It seems obvious the reason she did not tell where she got her puppy from is because she KNEW members in her community would not approve of her doing the exact opposite of what she advises other puppy buyers to do. it just sets a bad example for others that are seeking guidance and direction,

[Pitts]

It makes perfect sense to the person it matters to, and that is her. I have no idea why she chose them, maybe she had a dog from there before, maybe she was comfortable with them, maybe that was the line she wanted, I do not know or try to guess, But the one thing I will not do, is to bash someone or put them or their dog down, for where the dog came from. It is not my right or my business. I dont care how I might feel about the breeder or what wrongs i believe them to have commited. If you get a puppy and decide to talk about it, then great, I will be supportive and give advice when asked, but I will not put you down in your time of joy.
As for setting a bad example, I dont think that is so, She didnt advertise where she got it, she wasnt advertising the kennel or promoting them, she did not advise people to go to them to get a dog, she even stated at one point when someone asked about getting a dog from that litter, and asked where they came from, she stated that they were all spoken for and then directed them to other resources to find a breeder. That was good advice and a good direction and guidance.
For us to sit here behind our computer screens and judge someone because of what they choose to do, is absolutely arrogant and wrong. Especially to sit there and judge and bash others when we truly have no idea as to why or how they came up with the decision they made to do what they did. Fact is, IT IS NONE OF MY OR ANYONE ELSES BUSINESS.

thats just my opinion, but again, I am just not one to bash others for their choices, even if I dont agree with them. After all, I was taught as a child that people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones, and I am fairly certain that we all have glass somewhere on our houses.

[nterry]

Pitts, like one of the ladies said here, "YOU support what you buy."

I have less of a problem that someone would buy unhealth tested, poor pets than that they are passing these off as Euro Dogs. These are not what quality dogs look like and even in a picture, you can clearly see big issues.

Good post Mountain Pony and thank you for saying, as ya'll say. LOL.

[MountainPonies]

OFA states and is back by research that the older the dog that the more accurate the evaluation. This is why most do hips at 2 as recommended. If you want to do an early detection I would suggest he Penn Hip evaluation. The DH that is done over seas is not as accurate due to age and why we do OFA or Penn hip evaluations.

Pitts she can choose to support this and certainly her choice but when you give advice and do the opposite people will say so and that's just one way were remind people that we health test not for our reputation, but for the dogs. When you buy dogs that aren't health tested, you are saying it's ok and doesn't matter to you. Don't give advice if you can follow that advice.

I like to think we are talking about dobermans. The people are not of concern but the dogs are!

Debi - just want to point out that the DV (not DH) does not require these evaluations be done at 1 year - they do accept dog evaluations as early as one year but also at any point in the dogs life - as does the OFA - the OFA also accepts hip evaluations at 1 year - they designate hip evaluations between 1 year and 2 years as Pre-liminary evaluations. Your statement that the DV hip evaluation is not as accurate as one from the OFA is just not TRUE.

And Debi would you please share with me where you found the research that supports the statement that the older the dog is evaluated the more accurate the result will be. Thanks

[nterry]

Debi - just want to point out that the DV (not DH) does not require these evaluations be done at 1 year - they do accept dog evaluations as early as one year but also at any point in the dogs life - as does the OFA - the OFA also accepts hip evaluations at 1 year - they designate hip evaluations between 1 year and 2 years as Pre-liminary evaluations. Your statement that the DV hip evaluation is not as accurate as one from the OFA is just not TRUE.

And Debi would you please share with me where you found the research that supports the statement that the older the dog is evaluated the more accurate the result will be. Thanks

Common mistake Debi made with letters, I've done the same and more so recently without my glasses. HO.

I think that Debi is saying that a hip rating a one year old is accepted but is not as accurate as an OFA at 2 years. At 2 yrs. the DV is certainly comparable. Many sites state that until a dog is finished growing that the joints can change and thus why OFA does not certify at 2. OFA certainly says this on their site. The DV doesn't but the hips can change with a dog growing. I've known of one. We use # in the UK, but many do the Germany A-1 etc. Many in Germany do not think that a DV before 2 is a certain reading. Others, only do that.

[nterry]

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1569&aid=444

This article explains the ofa an penn hip orginated in the US that most I know use. It is very reliable.

Know that when you xray hips that reliability if 70-100% that is why most have the hips checked at two and while they may do prel with the DV or ofa, they redo them at 2. That's more reliable. Just depends on what the dog is working and you plan.

One vet check by a general vet does not compare to these tests because frankly, they can be much more bias than individual evaluations and thus, why we do them.

[RKCM]

DV is the german doberman verein Bites and you can get their hip checked over them with 1 year of age, the x rays are the ssme you need for the OFA. The only difference is the age and hat you send it of to germany to get it checked over them.

We have used OFA and PennHip evaluations. Just wondered if the DV used 3 different specialists to evaluate the hips or just one?

PennHip can be done on puppies and while it does test the hips. OFA certifies that they will not get HD and why they do it at two years. I think the earlier you xray the hips, the less reliable on the OFA pacifically. OFA said prelims were 70-100% accurate.

HD is caused by genetics but may also be other factors like exercise or diet. Although, for the most part genetic. I've only known of 2 that have every failed the OFA but then pet dogs aren't tested. All dogs should have one of these OFA or PennHip. The DV maybe just as good but why would you sent it to Germany? What is the benefits?

Good information people! Glad to see this moving into positive.

[MountainPonies]

It has to do with age and is on the OFA website. Certified vs prelim At 2 they can be certified, prelim are not as certain.

I think this litter had no testing, as if they did where is it?

Bites I looked on the OFA website and could not find the study - could you provide a link to it please - thanks

[RKCM]

This is the information I found in regard to prelims on the ofa website:

"A recent publication* compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months"

[RKCM]

We do Pennhips on some earlier and OFA at 2. But both Pennhip and OFA are a check for good hips.

[nterry]

In the UK we use numbers much like the PennHip but it is different.

[sheat187]

Nothing has been posted about this breeder for several months... I'm curious if there have been any recent developments? I hate to see so many bad things and so few good things. And why so much bashing? I'm just curious. Can't seem to find anything but bad stories?

[Panama]

I am hoping this old thread is not being brought up to try to 'stir the pot'. If it leads in that direction, it will be stopped.

On public forums, you are going to get an array of opinions, both good and bad. Those opinions are based on personal experience as well as history & reputation of the subject, information they provide to the public about their activity, choices as well as the info pertaining to their specific dogs. And of course, photos!

They say pictures are worth a 1000 words! I think we many have exceeded that, but... if they're going to lay it out there for the public to see, opinions are going to generate.
Tearing someone apart is NOT what is intended, but when you have someone that supports poor breeding practices and choices on one side, then you have someone trying to help educate, it is going to sound like a bash fest to a supporter. The main goal should be to educate about the Breed Health, Standard, and breeding Ethics, and why some dogs shouldn't be bred.

Are you a Thunderstorm supporter? Do you have a dog from this kennel? Please feel free to share you personal experience, knowledge or opinion of them.

[DoberTwink]

While I do not own a Tstorm dog, I have lived with one for almost the last 7 years. My roommates girl, Jasmine, will be 7yrs old on Valentine's Day and she was purchased from Tstorm. She is out of Thunder and a bitch that is not owned by them. My roommate had no issues with them, she was able to choose her pup and everything from payment to shipping went just fine. Of course, mind you, this was before her or I knew much of anything about Dobermans, I'm positive she would every go back there for another dog, even though Jasmine is the light of her life.

Jasmine has been a happy, healthy girl all her life (minus a broken leg which had nothing to do with her breeder or breeding). She has a proper temperament and passed her WAE with flying colors. She is strange dog aggressive but very social with dogs she knows. I attribute much of this to lack of socialization when she was young. Conformationally, she is lacking IMO...however, I will say, she has very nice bone and substance, nice feet, excellent depth of chest and adequate rear angluation. She is long in body and has a straight front and a roachy topline (some of that due to her leg injury and carrying her weight on her front for the last 6 years). She is roman nosed and has a light eye. She has 42 teeth but they are not all in the right spot haha She is missing a premolar on one side and has an extra one on the other side. We no nothing of her mother and only know of her father from the Tstorm website.

Jasmine has excellent hips OFA, vwd carrier, echo normal 1/2010, black #4. She had one accidental litter (long story) and while I think the daughter I kept IS better, nothing in that litter was anything to be proud of (knowing what we know now). She is spayed as is her daughter I kept, and the Sire, my boy is neutered. The majority of the pups went on limited registration and I wish now that they had ALL gone on limited registrations but we got some bad advice and we didn't know any better. There's one male who may or may not be bred, other than that, I don't think any of the other 9 will ever reproduce (thank god!) Jasmine probably would have been a stellar working dog and is a wonderful companion.

I am in no way supporting Tstorms breeding program, just passing along the experience. If the average pet owner had the same experience that my roommate has had, I can see why he's still in business....that is part of the problem with BYBs, etc...they are great salesman and they give the customers what they want. Many people who go to BYBs can't afford a puppy from a reputable breeder and/or wouldn't be approved for one anyways. That doesn't necessarily mean they are an unfit home. No way would my roommate have been able to buy a puppy from a reputable breeder back then...a BYB was really her only choice and mine as well. Hence my BYB boy. Of course since we had an accidental breeding of two unhealth tested pets, I guess we WERE unfit back then!! LOL but I still attribute that to bad advice...everyone starts somewhere, everyone makes mistakes, the differences is whether or not we learn from them :D

[Logan]

Meejin thanks so much for sharing your experience, i admire your honesty and i totally agree with you on that " everyone starts somewhere, everyone makes mistakes, the differences is whether or not we learn from them "

[sheat187]

I was just curious since there had been no mention. I recently purchesed a puppy from Lance and he's been really great. My puppy is beautiful. Lance and I also discussed the things said about him on here, all stories have two sides after all. I'm happy with my purchase. Oh and I am in no way related to Lance just to put that out there. I'm just letting it be known that I had a positive experience with him.

[nterry]

Jonarde - Thank you for posting this. Anyone who has every had anything to do with showing, breeding, breed clubs etc would know better than to every buy a puppy from this breeder. It is required by the airport to put last feeding date on the fight info and it has to have been within 4 hours. So the without food for 24 hours is a lie unless he uses some off beat airlines I am not aware of. They have to have 2 food dishes in the crate and food taped to the top silly since I know the airlines will not feed them but none the less. They do not want any puppy hungry.

If puppies are wormed correctly and kept clean they will not have worms. I have mine screened several times and have never had a puppy with worms so that puppy was thin due to poor feeding and malnourished plus worms. In puppies this can cause health problems down the road.

If the flight is long the puppy can look sunken in in the tummy area until fed but you should not see bones and ribs - this is clearly a lack of proper feeding and care.

Puppies should be put on heart worm preventive at 4 months - this usually takes care of worms so the til 6 months is strange. A puppy should never be underweight at arrival.

He is pretty correct on the tail. I also have mine repaired if they need it at ear cropping. Funny comment: "at my expense" Whose expense would it be but the breeder?

So this is Heather's first litter??? - My gosh she has been there all along. I don't think either one know how to correctly care for the dogs and now he openly admits he has pushed them off on someone else - why just to make money???

Sorry that you had this problem. Hope Cosmo continues to do well.

It appears to me that the people that posted about this kennel are no longer members and this is a old thread. Let's hope they improved. I do not know the kennels involved, but the member above had a picture of a very sad doberman and advertised it as champion lines. Birds of a feather and sometimes they want to ditch people to make themselves look better. Unclear messages here.

There were several people complaining about receiving dogs in poor condition and an improperly cropped tail and looks like dobe4ever kept it going with her expertise. And a few emails were quoted. I think it is for the person buying to determine if this kennel is what they support. I find it questionable in many areas, but thanks for sharing. Is this why you joined us? I think there are other discussions on other forums if I remember correctly, check out dobermanchat where VonDude had a male that was put down, which was a very faulty dog by the picture. That dog looked nothing like the dogs now on the website.

Did you buy this dog for breeding and if so, I hope you will research and learn more before you jump into it. Logan and others are very forgiving of breeding, most of us think you should be knowledgable and not jump into something so serious. I would be suspect of the bigger is better claim. There are better lines of dobermans in my opinion and for the price, much better.

[Logan]

It appears to me that the people that posted about this kennel are no longer members and this is a old thread. Let's hope they improved. I do not know the kennels involved, but the member above had a picture of a very sad doberman and advertised it as champion lines. Birds of a feather and sometimes they want to ditch people to make themselves look better. Unclear messages here.

There were several people complaining about receiving dogs in poor condition and an improperly cropped tail and looks like dobe4ever kept it going with her expertise. And a few emails were quoted. I think it is for the person buying to determine if this kennel is what they support. I find it questionable in many areas, but thanks for sharing. Is this why you joined us? I think there are other discussions on other forums if I remember correctly, check out dobermanchat where VonDude had a male that was put down, which was a very faulty dog by the picture. That dog looked nothing like the dogs now on the website.

Did you buy this dog for breeding and if so, I hope you will research and learn more before you jump into it. Logan and others are very forgiving of breeding, most of us think you should be knowledgable and not jump into something so serious. I would be suspect of the bigger is better claim. There are better lines of dobermans in my opinion and for the price, much better.

Excuse me, what that suppose to mean ?
And by the way, its not VonDude, i think its VonDoom, just saying.
I'm not very forgiving when it comes to breeding, i just hate private vendettas and wrong claims, thats all or if old stories get pulled out over and over again or if people getting acused and can't defend themself.

[Logan]

His website doesn't have the dogs that were discussed and it is always a buyer beware decision in buying dogs. And there you go, dobes4ever is JBarS or is it Echo now? Same person I believe. She has some nerve after the picture of her and her champion line years ago. Calling the kettle black.

Thanks for sharing your experience with Lance. And glad you have a nice puppy.


AGAIN Vwoofe LMAO, really
Suzan Ship is JbarS dobermanns, always was. Who the heck is Echo or what is Echo
Here ya go again http://jbarsdobies.com/Enter.htm

[BreesMom]

Vwoofe, can we just drop the JbarS and move on. The member I now see is ban and enough has been said. No one cares, we have seen enough.

LOL...you see NOW the member is banned????? I think the banning is almost as old as the dog you guys have been all twisted about :D

But I do agree enough said...no one cares :)

[RKCM]

Please keep this thread on topic or it will be closed. THank you.

[Logan]

http://dobequest.org/people.php?PEOPLEID=5243&type=owner

http://dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=41946

Well Logan this clearly upsets you and frankly, I think we have been over and over this breeder. Above is the link that clearly shows she also uses the kennel name Echorun's on dogs she has bred recently. Vwoofe, can we just drop the JbarS and move on. The member I now see is ban and enough has been said. No one cares, we have seen enough.

Logan, you might want to get the facts right before you defend your friend. She now uses this kennel name, nothing wrong with changing the name last I checked. But you are right it isn't Echo, it's Echorun's , same difference.

Its not that i defendingen them, but why is is that those names coming up over and over and over again? Why is it is so hard to move on.
When i got on here two days ago there were i think maybe 3 new threads and it was the same ol same.
Why is it that we are always bickering about silly stuff? I wouldn't buy from any of these people and if you think that's what you want to buy, support it! IT's your right too.



http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/gzollfrank/horse.jpg

[RKCM]

Now Logan that post gave me a big chuckle. Not sure who is getting the pounding but it sure lightened the atmosphere. Thanks for that. LOL.

And Bite's -you are making me work too hard. The topic is Thunderstorm, not Suzan Shipp. Please Please leave the thread on topic. Much appreciate that.

And actually, there is no law about changing kennel names, done by quite a few. Hey! And I even changed my class name when I got married. Some do it and some don't, just like kennel names, it doesn't make it bad. Be fair. LOL

[sheat187]

Love that puppy and glad you had a good experience. Think long and hard before breeding, do more research before you jump into the pit. Lots to learn.

As of now i have no intention of breeding. and if i ever consider it in the future i will have him health tested for sure, and do a lot of research. I wouldnt want to get in over my head with something like that. Im young now so its not a big deal now. At some point i would like to be a breeder and only sell healthy dobes. I would only use health tested parents and it would be on a small scale. But thats probably at least 10 years down the road. Ive been fostering and volunteering for a local doberman rescue, its been really great and ive learned a lot. I had a 10 year old black and tan female that i adopted, recently had to put her down almost a year ago.... it was very hard and she was an amazing dog. I decided to go with a puppy this time and do an occasional foster. The fosters are ALWAYS spayed/neutered so i wouldnt have to worry about an accidental breeding. I like to think im on the right track! i love this breed and always have! so i hope to contribute positively to the breed some day!

[DoberTwink]

I don't want to give the impressing I am insulting you or Logan because I see what you are saying. I understand what you are saying and glad you know now.

What I do think is when people that don't ever learn and will not learn, hear you saying this. They follow the leader. If I could count how many times I'd heard I didn't know better, it was only one breeding, all the pups were fine, just over and over again. When you do rescue you speak out and say, well you should of known better and you take in those puppies that were sold full and it is never ending. So many making excuses and putting that cash in their pocket. It's never ending.

No insult taken. Sh!t happens and you live and learn. I personally don't think that these 1 time offenders (like myself) are the real problem...sure, these 1 litters add up but the #s will NEVER come close to those BYBs who KNOWINGLY breed litter after litter after litter. The people that learn from their mistakes are not the problem in this breed (or any breed). It's those who DON'T learn or have no intentions of even trying to learn. Those who think they know it all and honestly think that what they are doing is ok. Most aren't breaking any laws and while they may never meet our standards, they are meeting their own (as warped as they may seem to us).

It's all a matter of opinion and everyone's opinion is different. Tstorm and others like them will NEVER meet MY standards that I have now but they didn't seem so bad when I was a novice. Any normal "buyer" can find what they are looking for at most BYBs....cheap pets who are "well" cared for and "sellers" who are the nicest people on the planet. haha There IS a market for BYBs and someone like Tstorm is not one of the worst and maybe wouldn't even be a true BYB by some people's definition, he does health test, which is more than I can say for my BYB dog's breeder. My point is, it's all relative....everyone has an opinion and has different "standards" that they feel are right.

What do you feel about "show breeders" who are supposedly reputable but who still have oodles and oodles of litters year after year after year?? They are producing many more dogs than some of these BYBs AND sometimes they are NOT healthier dogs, just because they are health tested, doesn't mean they are healthier. Does that make it ok for them to do this just because they are showing and health testing??

[RKCM]

Health is important good for you for doing research. I would strongly suggest you contact someone on the DPCA website and contact a mentor or breeder so you can also learn how to evaluate temperament and structure. Study the standard too. They have an illustrated standard that will help on the DPCA website that is helpful. Before you ever think about breeding a doberman this is good advice. There are not enough homes for pets, so if you breed make sure you are breeding for a purpose and have buyers. We both know there are many that are put into rescue and we don't need more. Be sure you have the room and time to take back everyone of those puppies. That's just to start.

And please find someone to do the ears. I see so many of those "donkey ears" that make the dog look so ridiculous. Doing ears isn't cheap and few do a good job. I am not fond of the crops I've seen out of that kennel. Raising pups cost thousands and you have to have it to do it right, not cheap and there is only money in it for people that cut corners at the expense of the dogs. It should be a hobby and to improve the breed. You can't start with dogs that are inferior.

And research limited reg., it will help prevent pups from going on to puppymills, albino breeders, and idiots. I have no respect for people that sell every puppy on full. It may not prevent idiots from using them but it certainly will discourage some.

And it maybe like posted above, you will learn and just decide that you need another dog. A lot of IF's on this and risks. I do think there are better dogs and you do want the best. Don't expect to start at the bottom. Some do it but for many of us, it is unexcuseable.

Good for you on fostering and hope you enjoy your dog. Learn all you can and don't settle for anything but what you consider the best, if you do breed.

Nice post bites and I agree. There is not enough homes for all these dogs.

I will point out that being a DPCA member is good but is does not mean you are worth supporting. We know a few that are far from what I'd support and thanks Panama for reminding me of that. Do your homework before you buy a dog. You support what you buy.

[RKCM]

What do you feel about "show breeders" who are supposedly reputable but who still have oodles and oodles of litters year after year after year?? They are producing many more dogs than some of these BYBs AND sometimes they are NOT healthier dogs, just because they are health tested, doesn't mean they are healthier. Does that make it ok for them to do this just because they are showing and health testing??


Oodles meaning how many?

We hope if they are show breeders that they aren't just aiming for the pet populations as we have enough pets that are homeless. If they are breeding for pets, I'd sure hope they go into another breed.

And every breeder should health test because it tells you the health of that dog before breeding. To not test is just unexcusable. It is what needs to be done. It doesn't make them healthier but it can certify hips, give a Vwd status, tell the heard condition on that day, let you know the thyroid is working.......those I'd support at least does this much.