Training for Manners

[von Cosack Dobermann]

Hello, if your a novice owner and would like a great start in OB training please post here or pm me if you prefer. I can help get you started with some techniques and explain the variety of Methods used in gaining control and implementing manners. Von.

[Dobs4ever]

Von this would be very good info. Would you please post some info on getting started.

Thanks

[von Cosack Dobermann]

D4Ever, I'd fill the pages and wind up arranging it wrong, I'll do my best as people ask questions ok.

I do start out with the Lil' guys positioning them with my hands and repeat the position verbally. Quitely and as calm and confident as possible without laughing, pups do make me laugh when you see them trying but they don't know what the hell you want of them haha!! I do use my hands for sit and stand stay, give them a good amount of time dragging a light weight lead with a light weight flat on all around the place, supervised always. Two or three minutes maybe ten times a day to start, then we both take a nap together, The End for now!! Von.

[RKCM]

I have always worked on bonding with the puppy first. We work on housetraining, cratetraining, chewing on toys instead of us or things they shouldn't, and we always use positive rewards.

What age to you suggest obedience training?

The positioning Von explained is most likely something the puppy would like to do for you. I sit on the couch watching TV and always teach them to sit quietly etc. Is this the kind of thing you mean or is it on the floor?

[Dobs4ever]

RKCM - I personally start at 8 weeks. They are ripe and ready. I use treats and don't use my hands to position them as they are so anxious to please they will do it pretty easily. But Von has a good idea and I have been using my hands more with Anja just because Dobes are so body sensitive. I agree with Von that this would greatly reduce the challenges later. Of course, in stacking I touch them, pet them and do that darn tail every day. By 6 months if you start young you can have some very basic things set in their minds which will carry them through the rest of their lives.

Anja is 16 weeks and this week is learning to take that first big step of heel and looking at me. WE are only working on the first step with attention.

[Rhiannon]

I would personally love some information on obedience training. I am pulling a show dog out of the show ring and think that he would be a great obedience dog with some time and extra attention invested. I know he would be a lot easier to walk. LOL. :D

[RKCM]

I can tell you that the obedience people are fun. It is never too late. They are just so smart. Competition is what you can do with your dogs and there are many winners. Is there an obedience school in your area? Just fun for you and fun for the dog. :D

I think having housedogs that some of the exercises were things we do without formal training. I had to learn the patterns and rules so I could tell the dog what I wanted. They learned a lot faster than me. LOL

[von Cosack Dobermann]

I agree with all of the above. I try first with my word (voice) I use my hands softly to position (sit) and I reinforce with STAY I know many don't use that anymore but it is a safty command for later on in training. If I have an active pup I add a toy to redirect if the pup is food motivated I'll use but I'm not a treat giver per say. My training has been OB into PP and the treats fail with high drive dogs in my experience. So I try the other options first, I'm not against it I just prefer vocal praise and my energy to get my point across.

The retired show dog already has OB in them. Showing is training and many will excell at other tasks. Find a quality trainer and "train em up". No reason not to. Von.

[SnuzerDog]

Von C., I am definitely still a novice, as I have had my 7 yr old rescue dobe for just a year and a half, but we are about to graduate our second obedience course this Tues. I have also done quite a bit of research/reading on different techniques and find it all quite interesting. Luckily the Training Club we have joined has an extensive offering of obedience, agility, rally, earth dog and conformation courses to choose from so the sky is the limit for us! But, I am always interested in learning about new/different approaches and methods, so please post on! :)

[Michael327]

I also have used my hands when training pups . It is good to establish a routine of handling your pup from nose to tail daily. Opening the mouth for inspection , checking their paws , basically getting them comfortable with being handled. Keep it relaxed and playful , your vet will love you for it !

If ever they get injured you want a dog that trusts you so you can do what is necessary without it being a battle. If I pick up a bag of cotton balls mine hop up on the bed and jostle for position to see who's going to get their ears cleaned first - that's what you want - not the chase & fight game .

I am here to share and learn so keep posting people.

[Dobs4ever]

Rhiannon - there are a few things the dog will have to know all its life and I start it at 8 weeks with the stacking. Stack, Stand, Sit, Down, Stay, watch and heel. You can make it a game but I do each of those things for just a couple minutes at a time throughout the day. At this age they are so eager to please that they are much smaller so easier to handle. Mine are all very food or toy motivated, but I start with treats. I like to start with a couple minutes of playing with a toy and then move to working. Then end with playing again. All this takes at best about 10 minutes. By starting at this age you get focus and attention much sooner than a dog that has not learned these things from an early age. It traines the mind to the work ahead.

Most show people don't want to mess up their conformation in the ring but if you do it correctly the dog learns the difference and is actually to me much better plus by the time they are through showing you are not so far behind in going on to obedience.

[von Cosack Dobermann]

D4Ever, I agree with the routine and time duration. I prefer my voice as the first choice to motivate and have their focus on me but with the Lil guys sometimes a toy or treat is helpfull. Nice post.
Instead of me rambin' about this or that post questions OP's and then a variety folks can suggest options. I'm much easier to understand in person haha!!! With the written word I loose some focus by the time I type an answer I can think of three other ways to approach a problem haha!!! My spelling is very bad and my typing is worse. I'll start ramblin'..........like right NOW!! Later. Von.

[Dobs4ever]

Von you are correct on the voice thing. When I started training for competition I found out you have to put about twice as much energy into it as the dog especially when you get to the harder routines. You would think with all that I would be thinner????? Dobes are so sensitive they read us far better than we know. So even smiling a lot is important.

[Michael327]

When my current two were Little pups, multiple times a day I would have them sit in front of me , call their names and wait for eye contact . Treat as soon as I had it and keep repeating . Fade the treat giving and move over to petting , praise and play . The warm and fuzzy feeling happens when they are intent on bone chewing , you call their name and that little puppy head just whips around to see where you are .

I would also hide on them when they were not looking and call out . Fun and games watching them hunt me down. Kept their focus on me when we were out and about. Also got harder to hide on them as they grew , smart dogs.

[RKCM]

It sounds like you are having fun with your puppy and I'm all for it! They r amazing creatures.

[Rhiannon]

When my current two were Little pups, multiple times a day I would have them sit in front of me , call their names and wait for eye contact . Treat as soon as I had it and keep repeating . Fade the treat giving and move over to petting , praise and play . The warm and fuzzy feeling happens when they are intent on bone chewing , you call their name and that little puppy head just whips around to see where you are .

I would also hide on them when they were not looking and call out . Fun and games watching them hunt me down. Kept their focus on me when we were out and about. Also got harder to hide on them as they grew , smart dogs.

Cool hide and seek with dobermans.....how fun is that....and you have got that right very smart dogs........they cannot be beat. :D

[Big Dogs]

We start out with treats with puppies along with voice commands and quickly loose rewarding with treats as we want the dog to work for us although every dog is different and we deviate some. We emphasize the come command early on along with the sit and down or platz command the stay command helps control over excited dogs and overtime makes them calmer to a degree. An older dog that is stable can help a pup with the stay command. As my instructor told me many years ago there mother and other dogs are far better trainers than we could ever be.

[Rhiannon]

Thanks for all of the great suggestions. Do you guys know the difference between Rally obedience and regular obedience in the show ring? I have recently heard about Rally and know that is where the RN title comes into play. Is one easier than the other to get started at? I always was afraid to try to do much obedience work with my conformation dogs as I was worried that they would sit in the ring at the wrong time but I am going to try to see what happens. I want to start getting some obedience titles on my dogs as well. And these guys are definitely smart enough to try to do so.

[RKCM]

I'm not expert and still learning in obedience. I enrolled in a rally class after one or two obedience classes. What is easier about rally is the dog is off lead. I didn't like it because you had to read signs during the exercise. I felt like I did all the work. LOL.
There are alot of people that love it. I guess it would be easier and a quicker title. The training club that I go to require at least a few classes of obedience to do rally, some clubs don't.

In obedience, you have to work off lead for a title. I just find that I enjoy it more and the dogs tranfer that, I guess. You have to teach them to stand and they know the command. I am not sure how it will effect Dagger in the ring but I'll keep you informed.

I can tell you that the dogs love it and the people are very friendly. Many dogs win and it isn't just WD or WB like in the breed ring. It is really what you can do with the dog and either they do the exercise correctly and get a leg or they don't.

Obedience was more about me learning how it works and letting the dog know what I wanted. Of course, you have to practice too. Highly recommended though whether you compete or not.

[DLS]

327, I agree, fun is good, Hide and seek while hiking off leash with your dog is a great way to teach your dog to keep an eye on you at all times too. You just wait till they have run off and then when they are not watching you, you hide and watch them fly by a few times until the 'panic' stops and they stop and use their nose and eyes. Cool when they 'find' you, some just kind of stare at you, full eye contact but they do not move a muscle, until you speak or move, then they come in full tilt. Others keep their nose to the ground until they are amost right on top of you, do not do this with your Pitbull though, they flatten you and lick your face all over, it is horrible.:)

Also when i am out and about with the mutts, I do not call them if I take a detour off onto another logging road or trail, I just keep walking. They figure it out pretty quick, does not take long before they NEVER miss you detouring.:)

Our Breed is a problem solving breed. And they are very good at it.

[Dobs4ever]

So true DLS - always thinking and that is what makes them so much fun to work with. They will give you everything but it has to make sense to them and that is why you can't drill them like a German Shephard. Sometimes if I forget Gunner will stop and look at me like "hey we just did that" I love the experssion on his face. Keeps me on my toes and laughing.

i just could not enjoy working a GS like a Doberman.

[RKCM]

Dagger, who I have worked with this last year in obedience is a puller. Funny thing is when I take him to the training building, he never pulls and does his exercises. He doesn't pull when I take him places. He pulls when I take him out of the fence at home and his nose is down. I live in the country and was thinking it maybe him smelling animals that may have come up during the night or something??? What do you think?

I can get him to stop by making turns but I was wondering why he does this at home. I have always used the martingale type collar but was thinking of a prong. He just wants to rush forward once he is in the front area.

I keep thinking it is something I am doing???

[Big Dogs]

RK Dagger sounds like he is going into the territorial mode at home and wants to make sure no one has been on his turf. He doesn't do it when he goes to the training building for two reasons it isn't his turf and he knows what he is there to do. When you take him with you places he is busy taking in his environment and watching for you. Here is a suggestion at home you might want to try at home. Have him in the heel mode and sitting before you even open the gate, open it and have him remain in the sit posture have him heel and walk two or three steps stop and have him sit again. Make sure you go through the gate first and by stopping every two or three steps this does three things 1 it makes it very hard for him to smell the ground in the sit position. 2 I't doesn't give him enough time to really start pulling hard and 3 You will be keeping his attention on you and not the ground. After you are done with him let him smell around if he starts to pull put him back into a sit position just utilize what he has already learned and turn it into a way of manipulating him into what you want him to do. I always say once there obedience trained you can really use it as a tool for many things.

[RKCM]

This weekend I could finally get out and work with the dog without freezing. I took him out from the house and from the fence. Put him on a sit stay and he puts his nose down as soon as he enters the front area and he pulls. Now not pulling me down and is under control. He is just pulling and putting his nose down. Once he is away from the front door area and carport, he is fine. Maybe he just protecting since he does not do this at the training building. I never thought of this. Thanks Big Dog for the tip because there has to be a reason he is doing this. I think you maybe right.

I took him out to get some pictures of him for a friend and had him on a show lead. He never put his nose down and never pulled. I tried it again the next day, same thing. I had him on a martingale lead before and now he is on just a slip. Funniest think I've ever seen. I think it was the lead. That dog!

Also, Von you are right. I worked Dagger this weekend for conformation. It was nice to have him stand and stay like I put him when stacked. He seems to know the command and isn't sitting like I was afraid he would. And like I said on the slip lead, he is not pulling or putting his nose down.

Thanks for the suggestions. We're still working.

OMG I love this dog!

[von Cosack Dobermann]

Glad to hear it, keep working and make it fun!!! Von.

[RKCM]

Thanks Von. I always have fun with the dogs, win or lose.

[OliveOil]

Okay, what do you guys think about this--

I'm trying to get my foster some inside out of the crate time. He's never been kept inside before. I thought I had read somewhere on here where somebody had tied the leash to their belt loop and had the dog "shadow" them everywhere, and working your way up to longer distances. How do you think this is for training? Do you think that this would make the dog dependent on you?
We've been working on our leash walking outside and it's coming along great. He stays right beside me and doesn't pull (yet, haha).
I think that when he's inside he's lost and doesn't quite know how to act. We'd had some problems with him marking when I let him run loose in the same room I'm in but if he's right beside me he can get a quick leash correction and a verbal correction.

[RKCM]

I will leave the training issue to some of our other members. I've never tried that so just don't know.

On the marking, you might try a belly band. I had a rescue some time back and housetrained him using it. I put it on when he was inside and he never marked again. He was actually good but couldn't have him marking in the house. The belly band worked for him.

Let us know how he is doing. Do you have a picture?

[Dobs4ever]

OliveOil the leash tied to the belt is a good idea. i usually recommend it for puppies because people forget to WATCH them and they get into trouble so fast or squat. It will work the same way for an older dog. That way you can be sure he does not mark. Don't worry about making him dependent. Dobermans are velcro - sounds like he never got ot experience this. Just don't baby him on the leash. Give direct commands like Let's go when you head to a new room - etc.

[spc13b]

I am starting fresh. I have started leash training, crate training and sit. He is doing well with all but sit. I have to push his rear down as I say sit. Any advice for a Doberman novice would be great.

[RKCM]

That sounds like fun, DLS. I'll try it. We play hide and seek with objects. The dogs love it, except for my old Sr. who wants her buddy to find it and she just takes it away. LOL

[SnuzerDog]

SPC13, on the sit- there is no need to push the rear down. Train it like this:

Get a small treat. Approach the dog head on with the treat just above nose level. As you get to around a foot or so away, say [dog's name] 'sit!' ONCE and continue to move forward keeping the treat above nose level. At some point as you move forward, raising the treat at the same time to bring his/her nose up, the back end will go down, at which point you say 'YESSSS!!!' and then give the treat to the dog.

Couple notes- only give the command once, always following the dog's name. Always wait for the back end to touch the floor/ground before saying YESSSS! and giving the treat. It should only take a few reps before the dog begins to make the connection between the word SIT and the behavior necessary to get the treat. Repeat often, gradually substituting praise/petting for the treat until no treat is necessary.

Have fun!:D